Am I alone in not supporting the baiting bill?

I'd honestly rather see it strictly enforced; I feel that it alters the natural biological patterns of the deer to such a degree that it is detrimental to the sport. If it is going to pass, it needs to come a long with a heavy tag price that will substantially benefit state conservation resources, and more stringent harvest limitations/restrictions.

While i disagree with your thought process it honestly doesn't make a hill of beans difference to me if it passes or doesnt. Its not going to affect my hunting.

Corn control is like gun control. It only punishes the honest people.

you reckon all the bubbas tromping through the woods and shooting the deer has any effect?

You lost me when you referred to hunting as a sport. IMHO that's exactly what's wrong with hunting now.

I only hunt for food not sport.

I think it's a fine activity and enjoyable heritage to be shared with the younger generation, but when we start looking at it as a sport,it begins to have connotations of competition,and that's something I detest.

IMHO it's this type attitude which leads to a bunch of Barney Fife's wanting to set regulations to up their chances of winning the big buck contest. You know,the neighbors are luring all my giant bucks onto their property with their corn. We have to set antler restrictions because the neighbors are shooting my bucks before they get a chance to grow to winning proportions. Just that type thing in a nut shell.

Please explain?

Also, not a sport. Most guys in here aren't athletes.

I just want to pet them but they wont hold still.

If you want to hunt over corn, come on down here to Fla and lease you some land. WE been killing deer over corn for 30 years. Ain't nothing to it..

I view hunting as a recreation, not a sport. However, I have made a few wagers in the past during squirrel season. Only head shots counted. It was good natured fun.

I can promise you that the guys hunting around my property dang sure do not want it passed and legalized. They are 100% against it I can assure you. It's the only way they kill deer.
They've hunted over it, illegally, for years around me. The day it is legal to bait and have it out on your property, without having to worry, their deer sightings and kills will be cut in half, at least, when I strategically place 4 or 5 big feeders out on my property. More land, better fields, drastically less pressure, stricter shooting requirements...the only thing deer could want on my property that they dont currently have is a big fat supplemental feed pile. Which for the past 7-10 years they've been having to go next door to get.

I dont care one way or the other. If it's legal, I'll have something out to hold my deer as much as possible. If it stays like it is, I'll just keep doing what I've been doing.

I couldn't care less energy way..

Yes your alone! Most people have been using corn and bait in some form or fashion for years!! Not going to change a thing the deer are educated very quickly to it and the big deer avoid it! Worked at Academy for four yrs and we sold pallets of corn!! Somebody is baiting and have been for years!

I don't see it as a sport or recreational I do it for the peace and quite and the meat if I kill a good un that's a plus. Also i could see baiting as to giving someone to look at a deer a little longer to make up their mind if that's the deer they want to shoot. Also may give a kid extra time to calm down before he shoots. May give someone who only has a few acres that enjoys hunting to kill a deer.If used properly it could be a tool for some people. To each is his own.

Hmmmm well u don't think a greenfield alter deers patterns?

You're not alone

I'm not pro baiting....

Doesn’t matter either way to me but it is always an entertaining debate to watch. If it’s legalized it will not be the end all to killing big bucks and if it’s legalized it will not be the end of deer hunting.

And it surely won't be the end of the world.

Either way it goes Im going to be in a Tree stand next october

In principle I oppose it because I simply don't think we need to make killing a deer easier in Alabama, I would rather see them make it straight up legal with no stipulations than continuing to make it confusing as to whether it is legal or not or use it as a source of revenue.

I hope that one day they will clear up the law in AL one way or the other. While I own some land back in AL, I don’t own enough for a corn pile to make a difference. I mostly hunt public land where it’s still illegal to bait in the states that allow it on private land. Doesn’t really matter to me but it feels like this debate has been going on forever. A corn pile shouldn’t be this big of a deal.

You're not alone. I think baiting is just another symptom of the millennial disease.
The lust for instant gratification and the justification for laziness.
I'd be in favor of capital punishment for baiting.

I'm hoping that if everyone else is baiting, I won't and deer will flock to my sanctuary.

I don't want it to pass. I want to go back to fair chase laws.

I can't compete against my rich neighbors.

Big difference between a sport and an athletic sport. Didn'y say hunters were athletes...golf is a sport by general classification, also not an athletic sport IMO, but that's all conjecture. By "sport", my connotation meant something that challenges one's craft while maintaining fundamental rules and operating procedures. Something can be an ethical "sport", i.e. enjoy the hunt, eat what you kill, and strive to improve and maintain the environment.

I'm not a fan of it, for reasons laid out in another thread.

I've quickly learned there are some folks who seem to equate disagreement with using corn/baiting to an insult directed toward their mother.

all they did was save me money, thanks lawmakers.

Too many people want to tell other people what to do.

Not alone. I’m opposed to baiting and supplemental feeding. I’ll even go along with no food plots.

Me either.

That's my thinking on it once it's legal it ain't gonna work no more because there's gonna be a corn pile in front of every stand. Gonna be just like hunting a greenfield is now.

I remember guys picking corn and putting it in the woods using it for bait in the 70s so, I don't think its just a young bucks game.

Since it has been legalized in GA, we have killed far bigger bucks. Why: because we were able to compete with the local outlaws.

No way. Only people born after 1990 are lazy

If you need corn piles to kill deer or turkeys then that's just sad 😂
I definitely think more of deer/turkeys killed by real hunters than those killed by baiters. If you are going to bait deer or turkeys then at least do it with food plots instead which provides better nutrition.

That take on baiting was very contradicting.

what about the aflotoxin levels in "deer corn" and its affect on turkeys?

How so?
Using corn piles to kill deer/turkeys is plain lazy and takes little to no skill, IMO, and it's definitely baiting. I'm just never, ever impressed with a deer or turkey shot off corn (and I know several who do it) no matter the size. Food plots are definitely baiting, too, but if you must hunt over bait then do it with something nutritional. Even though I feel food plots are baiting, I don't think it's a bad way of luring deer. I think hunting over corn should be illegal everywhere.

ETA: Actually getting out into the woods and figuring out your deer, their daily patterns and basically stalking them like nature intended is real hunting to me, not going and sitting in the same stand everyday watching a pile of corn...

And what skill or effort does it take to sit in a shooting house over a green patch? Don't hand me the line about green patches being better nutritionally either because that has nothing to do with the skill, ethics or effort required to hunt over one.

And furthermore corn is not the only thing you can load in a feeder. They make some excellent products in pellet form to feed your deer. Hell, Purina makes about 9 different kinds just to name one company and there are many more companies that sell such products. Granted most people will use corn. But then most people who plant green patches are not planting Imperial Whitetail Clover or 225 dollar a bag joint vetch either. Most just plant winter wheat, rye, or oats which provide a little nutrition for about 3 months. Just long enough for them to hunt over it during deer season.

I am an old veteran of these debates. I have been hearing these same tired lines for years. You know, how lazy, unethical and lacking in skill it is to hunt over corn while green patch hunters are strangely exempted from such criticism. But press people to explain why one requires any more skill or effort than the other and you cannot get a single person to provide one valid reason. How long it took you to plant the green patch is irrelevant to the skill required to hunt over it. That your green patch might have 10% more riboflavin than corn has no bearing on the skill required to sit in a shooting house and stare at it with a gun in your lap.

Well if you don’t want to be lazy and unethical get yourself some flint rock, beat out an arra head or three and find some straight sticks and whittle out 575 dozen arras. Then find you a hickory tree and whittle it down to a bow, then make you a string and go huntin.

Man I've learned a lot on Aldeer but this is a first. Never knew Mother Nature wanted us to only stalk and kill deer.

I wonder what other rules would of Mother Nature I break. I wonder why Nature intended to let us use fire arms or man made camouflage

I'd rather just go old school indian and gather up some buddies and do a man drive forcing a big herd off a high cliff or bluff. You get more way meat for the effort that way!

I think you should be able to run deer dogs anywhere you want to. Line the roads and power line up and let them dance, no permit needed, just run'em..

Nature would have had half of these dudes knocking you out and dragging you back to the cave. I wouldn’t even go there....

The point is the hypocrisy. You call baiting with plots Ok and corn not. The point is that they are both baiting. Period.

I only hunt them as they go about their daily business ‘naturally’!

I will admit that I once found the schedule for the local deer VFW meetings and used it to catch some old warriors on their way to the meetings.
And, the Deer Yoga Classes are great to intercept for doe control!!!

LOL

Seriously folks, forget Disney and that other BS.
They eat and they breed.
SURVIVAL is their utmost goal!
Be where they do those two things and you are way ahead of the game!

Burbank took the words out of my mouth. Basically in your terminology I can go pour out a bag of protein feed and it's now ok.

It’s that simple. Hogwild put it perfectly. It doesn’t take a PhD to kill a deer.. what it does take is free time to get after them. If you can figure out where they eat and where they want to breed you’ve got it half way figured out.. being in the right spot at the right time is the key.. that’s where it gets most of us.because we have to work and pay bills and such.

I'll be the devil's advocate, you say it begins to have connotations of competition, and you detest that. What's wrong with competition? Do you want to give everyone a trophy or just to the ones that earned it? Like I said I'm just playing out a different scenario. In real life everyone that hunts deer, only hunt for food to cover the costs of rifles, stands, bows, leases, gas to get there, licenses etc. agree with having fun. This stupid debate with never work out because "fun" is subjective from person to person.

Keep putting out corn and you want have to worry about deer, you will have plenty hogs to shoot!!!

don't care one way or the other, but I do care if my license cost increase because of it. Surly the price of corn will increase.

I think the only fair way to hunt deer, is to have your friends blind fold you and carry you out into the middle of the woods where there are no corn piles or foodplots, and drop you off. No weapons. You have to make your own, figure the deer out, and harvest them, uhh no wait, KILL them(that's for you Gomer) with no help at all. That's a true hunter!

it will defiantly be the end to deer hunting as we know it. It will drastically change it

No it won't. At least 35-50% of people deer hunting in AL are baiting every single weekend with corn or have feeders out during the season. It has been this way for the last 50 years. I'd venture to say that there are probably just as many people hunting illegally over it as there are obeying the law and not using it. The only thing that will change if it is legalized is that the people currently baiting will kill less deer because people like me, that havent been doing it because it is illegal, will start putting it out on our property and keeping our deer at home. I can kill as many deer as I feel like shooting in any given season, but will not change what I shoot or the number of deer i kill just because of corn. If anything, it will probably save a whole bunch of deer that my neighbors would normally bait off of us and kill. Especially the younger, stupid bucks that aren't old enough and smart enough to know better.

I've heard this argument way too many times. In one comment we have bubbas doing all the baiting and in one it's bubbas can't afford it but the rich can. Listen, I'm not trying to single you out. I'm just tired of the "my rich neighbors are baiting" argument and I'm also tired of the "everbody is baiting" baiting argument (heard from others). It's statistically impossible for everybody to be baiting. I'm not and I know many deer hunters all over the state who aren't and wouldn't if it were legal.

That said, like Jawbone, in principal I'm against it. I think it's lazy and as Outback said a symptom of millennials lust for instant gratification. I don't think killing deer needs to be any easier than it already is.

I also don't understand the contradiction. People argue baiting is fair chase and should be legal because it isn't the magic pill it's cracked up to be and don't send deer flocking to the bait pile. Out of the other side of their mouth they're saying their neighbors are pulling every deer off their property? Which is it?

We can blame the senators or whoever else for this not passing, but to be honest, I think a major factor is that the argument on the pro-baiting side is at best, incredibly flimsy.

Cat again, not trying to single you out. Most of that doesn't apply to you.

[/quote]

Nature would have had half of these dudes knocking you out and dragging you back to the cave. I wouldn’t even go there....

The point is the hypocrisy. You call baiting with plots Ok and corn not. The point is that they are both baiting. Period.



[/quote]
Burbank took the words out of my mouth. Basically in your terminology I can go pour out a bag of protein feed and it's now ok.
[/quote]

The problem with the food plots are the same as baiting is that they really aren't. Dumping a bag of corn out isn't the same as providing the wildlife on your property with an additional component of their natural habitat. You're providing the deer and other wildlife with additional year around food vs dumping out a bag of corn. I get what you're saying and I understand where the basis of your argument stems from...it's just not the same.

If you can give me a legitimate response that contradicts my opinion, I'll definitely listen.

Nature would have had half of these dudes knocking you out and dragging you back to the cave. I wouldn’t even go there....

The point is the hypocrisy. You call baiting with plots Ok and corn not. The point is that they are both baiting. Period.



[/quote]
Burbank took the words out of my mouth. Basically in your terminology I can go pour out a bag of protein feed and it's now ok.
[/quote]

The problem with the food plots are the same as baiting is that they really aren't. Dumping a bag of corn out isn't the same as providing the wildlife on your property with an additional component of their natural habitat. You're providing the deer and other wildlife with additional year around food vs dumping out a bag of corn. I get what you're saying and I understand where the basis of your argument stems from...it's just not the same.

If you can give me a legitimate response that contradicts my opinion, I'll definitely listen. [/quote]

There is no need.....you rmind is made up and you are JUST as guilty as the people that you were calling out in your ‘points’.

Sure, a foodplot will provide more food than A bag of corn dumped on the ground.

BUT, there is absolutely no way that it will provide more, or better, food than a quality feeder that is maintained with protein pellets.

[/ [/quote]
BUT, there is absolutely no way that it will provide more, or better, food than a quality feeder that is maintained with protein pellets.
[/quote]

I agree on a leaf/blade of grass comparison with a protein pellet. However, two weeks after the season is over when the feeder is not refilled (yes, one can bet it will be well maintained during the season) that is where the comparison stops and the food plot far exceeds the feeder in benefit to the wildlife. Which is what the reality is and will be. If "hunters" wanted to do the best thing for the deer and other wildlife regarding feeders that would be to us them when the wildlife needs it most which is after the rut when the deer need to recover and there is less nutritious browse available. But that is not the reason for the baiting in the first place, that reason is to make it easier to kill all of those deer that everybody complains that there are too few of. Thorough lack of common sense and a lot of finding the easiest solution possible is the answer du jour!

Carry on.

Thanks. Exactly the point I was making.

Don't agree period! It will increase your kill ratio and you will have less injured deer if you do your part. Hunting out of state on baited deer before I am speaking by what I observed. Why tax it, we should start taxing plot hunters in that case. More taxes who would suggest such a thing. You control what you shoot state just attempts to regulate you don't shoot a deer you will have all you want. Baiting don't kill deer people shooting them do. Corn no corn you should be able to chose. Will not matter either way to me, but the statements I hear about corn are almost all wrong.

Again, most of the people willing to pay the expense of quality feeders and protein pelllets also know that the most imprortnt time for them is late Winter/early Spring and then again in late Summer.

But, let’s not let facts get in the way of assumptions!

Yes, but that's getting further advanced into ANIMALS and Botany than the average Alabama hunter will ever be or cares to be. The average hunter just picks up a bag of corn at Wal-Mart around Nov 15 and that's good. Not hard to understand that late winter there is less browse. But late summer there is plenty Most look at all the plant life and say the have plenty.. BUT THE PLANTS ARE GOING THROUGH A CHANGE AND IT'S NOT QUALITY FOOD!! I see it with cows, donkeys, deer, and rabbits every year. I didn't learn that from a deer. I didn't learn it from hunters. That came from growing up with a bunch of old farmers.
The average hunter just doesn't care to get that deep.


.

So, let’s just lump everybody together and treat them all the same because some don’t know or care??

Here is a News Flash.....

Not all food plots are created equal!
I would say that MOST people have no idea what the pH of their soil is, plant annual seeds that are not very nutritious, the plants mature early providing little to nothing for game and were not properly fertilized so they don’t even produce a healthy seed crop.

So?
Should we make them illegal?

No, I'm not for it or against. I'm on varies properties through out season and see it a lot. Whatever. I will continue plant my corn fields. For consistently being able to kill a good buck if I do choose, I have found this to be the best for me. And quite frankly, it's the best for me because I'm lazy and after the initial planting, I don't have to go back to it if I choose.

But there's not going to be a full understanding by the AVERAGE Alabama hunter on what THEY need to do to maximize results, if that would even be possible with their resources And whether it becomes law of not, I won't change and don't care what others choose to do. I'm still going to be lazy.

You mention foodplots. The people on here are above average deer people in various degrees because they are still thinking deer. I see regular on here pics of foodplots that are knee high. Someone will say it looks good. Maybe for y'all but over about ankle high with me is totally usless. I'd plow it up and start over before I have a plot of grain even approaching knee high during season.

I would agree with the ph comment. The seed comment, not so much unless folks are going to the local bulk seed seller and getting it dumped in the back of the truck. I would believe most purchase seed from the local Co-Op in a pre-mixed bag blend that contains cool weather annuals and perennials, which provide nutritious browse through the winter and early spring. Fertilizer comment, I would agree with. However, if the "hunters" are not going to fertilize correctly are they going to be inconvenienced to take a day off from the the next immediate gratification endeavor to go buy feed, drive 1, 2, 3, 4 hours to fill up a feeder every couple of weeks??

Simple solution....keep corn illegal and allow feeding/baiting by the use of protein pellets year round, Heck even make them buy a masterbaiting permit. The baiters get to play the game they want and it helps the deer herd at the same time.

Back to the botany. Planted too early, or mother nature, can cause the plant quality to be less. There's a word for that but I can't remember. In other words, planting a plot in August in Mobile stands a great chance of being usless. But you've trialed and errored enough as I have you know that. Lord knows I've weighted heavy on the error side. I'm going back to bed.

As I have said before, as long as it remains the same as it is now, and no over-zealous, mind-reading GW decides that my Supplemental Feeders are actually Bait, even though they meet the criteria of the Supplemental Feeding Regulation, I am fine with it.

However, I would prefer not to have to ‘worry’ about an individual’s interpretation of the Laws and Regulations.

Agree with you there!

I think if passed it will erode more of our hunting heritage. We will become more like TX. Put out a feeder and sit and wait. And please don't start with the food plot is the same thing. This is simply my opinion.

Reminds me of that episode of King of the Hill. I dislike the arguments used to support baiting I think more than the idea of actually baiting:
1) My rich neighbors are doing it and I can't afford it
2) My poor redneck neighbors are doing it
3) It's no different than food plots
4) _____ state is doing it

My main concern with baiting or any other issue related to hunting is whether or not it’s good for wildlife.

You are not alone. There are ample biological and ethical grounds for prohibiting hunting over bait. But my opinion is of little consequence. Only a few key facts matter at this point. One fact is that the special interest forces in Alabama are now aligned to legalize baiting. Power brokers finally have enablers in key positions to make it happen. Another fact is that baiting opens Pandora's Box. Baiting can serve as a gateway to high fences, breeder pens, tagged bucks sold by the B&C inch, and a perceived commoditizing of deer. And this leads to the most sobering fact. That is, the future of hunting will be decided by the non-hunting public. Public support of hunting is highest when game is taken for food, and it is lowest when game is taken for "sport" or "trophy" or via "canned hunts." If non-hunters reach a tipping point where they no longer support hunting, it will be taken from us. We should all let that soak in.

The moral of the story is: Be careful what you ask for. We must conduct ourselves in a way that increase public support of hunting, rather than erodes public support. Non-hunters are watching us. And their opinions matter as much or more than ours.

Jerry

Don't agree with you on the ethical grounds. That said, you are very much educated on the biological ramifications. Can you expound on the biological grounds for prohibiting baiting? I am for less regulations, but not to the detriment of the health of any animal population. Would love to hear concrete rationale (studies) that show it to be a detriment. And I am not out to prove you wrong. I sincerely want to know.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It most certainly will affect your hunting and mine.

ANY subject, I don't care if it's NOT good for the wildlife. Just be neutral. IT JUST CAN NOT BE BAD FOR THE WILDLIFE! An example is the Feb extension in the north. It's not going to be good for wildlife. If it's neutral, no effect, then hunt it. But some think it is not good. Ok, let's hear their view. They may be right. In the end for everything wildlife just don't be bad. That's what I have been saying all along.

You lost me there. Could you please explain.

Never mind. I read your previous post and see what you were talking about. I, and assume jb20,,where thinking of my property and the neighbor is pouring out corn. Already happening but you're looking at a much bigger picture.

I am leaving town at noon so pardon the short reply. Here is a short list. Will be happy to go into much more detail later.

Released January 2018 by QDMA in opposition to a baiting bill.
• Baiting has the potential to accelerate transmission of diseases such as chronic wasting disease (CWD) and bovine tuberculosis (TB) should they ever be discovered in Alabama.
• Numerous national surveys confirm that the vast majority of the hunting and non-hunting public objects to hunting over bait.
• Legalization of baiting has been shown to create both “offensive” and “defensive” baiting situations among neighboring hunters, thus increasing conflicts.
• Baiting can alter deer behavior patterns, increasing movement and feeding activity at night rather than during the day. Research has clearly shown that deer harvest does not increase with legalized baiting.
• Experience in other states suggests a 4- to 8-fold increase in the amount of artificial food on the landscape following legalization of baiting.
• Evidence confirms that predators key in on feed sites to ambush deer – thus increasing deer mortality rates.
• Baiting has been shown to increase reproduction/spread of nuisance animals such as feral hogs and raccoons.

BUT, there is absolutely no way that it will provide more, or better, food than a quality feeder that is maintained with protein pellets.
[/quote]

I agree on a leaf/blade of grass comparison with a protein pellet. However, two weeks after the season is over when the feeder is not refilled (yes, one can bet it will be well maintained during the season) that is where the comparison stops and the food plot far exceeds the feeder in benefit to the wildlife. Which is what the reality is and will be. If "hunters" wanted to do the best thing for the deer and other wildlife regarding feeders that would be to us them when the wildlife needs it most which is after the rut when the deer need to recover and there is less nutritious browse available. But that is not the reason for the baiting in the first place, that reason is to make it easier to kill all of those deer that everybody complains that there are too few of. Thorough lack of common sense and a lot of finding the easiest solution possible is the answer du jour!

Carry on.[/quote]
you left out the fact that the deer can be sustained during this time by the fat they have built up, by eating the corn and protein pellets during season. And also most food plots that are planted are accomplishing little to nothing for the deer, a month or 2 after planting. Sure some might, but i would geese that a majority of them are not. Not to mention the fact that deer having been living along time before the food plots were ever planted in the woods. Let me ask you this, How many non-hunters do you know of that plant food plots that dont hunt? NONE! Just like the bait corn, there planted to kill deer off of. You can try to rationalize any way you want, its the same thing.

I may be neutral on the subject but ain't no way Alabama would increase 4- 8 fold over what is already being used if we are talking just corn. It would take all the corn in the world for that big of increase.

This should be the only concern of the game and fish department but we know that's not how decisions are made.

I'm no wildlife biologist so I may unaware of the consequence to baiting..if it's bad for the deer on a level of disease spread and it can be proven then I'll be against it but I hunt a large tract and it's just me so I don't care if my neighbors r baiting because I still kill deer at the moment
Edit I didn't see the previous post above so if it's so then I'll all for the betterment of deer

With CWD getting ready to blow up, I can't believe this would be a consideration. Where are the biologists to smash some heads on this?

I'm with you, whatever. It says there is "potential" for baiting to spread disease. That very same ",potential" as supplemental feeding or granny putting Apple's in her back yard so she can watch the deer. If disease is a real concern, then granny needs to be addressed.

I
Baiting CAN alter their movement to night. Is it, baiting WILL alter their movement to night? Probably somewhere in between. But even then is it 90% or 9%? 1% of the deer altering to night movement would make ",baiting can alter their movement to night" a correct statement. I just like a little more info

I said I wouldn't try to prove you wrong as you are a biologist and I am not, so I will refrain from anything I might disagree with in those QDMA points. I do think QDMA is not necessarily built on science currently. Their love of money long ago outran their love for science.

That said, and I know you said you would reply in detail later, this is the one I am most interested in by far. The others are mostly potential effects that surround the ethics argument. I can't capitulate to every tree hugger.


• Baiting has the potential to accelerate transmission of diseases such as chronic wasting disease (CWD) and bovine tuberculosis (TB) should they ever be discovered in Alabama.

Can you expound on this one in particular? And you can ignore the should they ever be discovered part. I can rationalize that part without a study to back it up.

Missouri is one state that has begun banning backyard feeding in CWD areas.

CWD is spread through direct contact with body fluids (saliva, urine, etc.). Concentrating deer at a feeder increases the frequency of direct nose-to-nose contact. Hence, if CWD is discovered in a particular herd, then feeders can accelerate its spread.

thats why its best to spread it out through the food plot.

Thank you and that is more accurate a point than I was able to make. Yes, an issue can be neutral to the health of wildlife and I agree 100% on the Feb extension in the north. My issue is people don't approach this argument with regards to the effects on wildlife. It's all "muh rights." And I know people want to frame the anti-baiting argument as weak in terms of causing or spreading disease, but we all know diseases like CWD are spread through situations of crowding. I don't think that is up for debate. Then we want to purposefully set up crowding?

I understand what you are getting at here and there have been generic statements like that long before CWD. Is there a specific study or studies that show how the baiting and/or supplemental feeding of deer has caused a wild population to spread disease?

While I completely respect your opinion and knowledge as a degreed wildlife biologist, I disagree that it will drastically impact deer movement and your hunting and mine. In the QDMA statement, there are a bunch of if's and buts and I also agree with whomever said it in this thread, that QDMA has morphed into something completely different from what it was when it was first started. The QDMA's response is nothing but words on a page to advance whatever benefits them the most at the time. James Kroll, Kip, Brian, and all of them were pushing the supplemental feeding of protein pellets as a management assistance technique in the past on QDMA managed properties and probably still are. Camera surveys have and continue to be pushed by QDMA, all of those are done with bait piles.

As far as the CWD and TB, yes it could enhance transmission of the disease, but deer are social animals anyway. They feed side by side, in both woods and fields, touch noses, lick each other etc. Would feeding drastically enhance the spread? Probably so on a short tem basis and probably not on a long term basis. The ones that will contract it would eventually contract it through other interactions whether baiting was present or not. With as much supplemental feed and illegal baiting as has gone on in Alabama for the past 40+ years and will continue to go on regardless of the pass or fail of the legalization of hunting over bait, this is a mute point.

It will increase the amount of supplemental feed in the woods by 4 to 8X? That would mean that currently in Alabama, the number of people supplementally feeding or illegally baiting is estimated at 10% to 20% assuming a small percentage will not ever bait regardless of the law. Those percentages are ridiculously low. I have 4 properties that currently adjoin mine and I know for a fact that 3 of the 4 have feed/bait out during the season and one has it out year round. While it's just one particular area, including my property in the mix, that would mean that 60% of the 5 properties in that particular area have it out for at least a portion of the year. Based on my experience with leases pretty much all over the central and south part of the state, I'd guess that probably 50%, if not more, of the hunted properties in AL have bait out somewhere on them at some time during the season, and thats not counting the thousands of people that have a "jacklight" in their backyard behind the house or are throwing out a bag corn of every 3-7 days to watch deer in their backyard.

Would lead to high fence and selling deer by the inch? If this was truly a concern, it should have been addressed 20 years ago. That horse is already out of the barn. There are a lot of guys hunting in "the big pen" here in Alabama and all over the country for that matter. IMO, QDMA while not formally advocating for it, inadvertently assisted with pushing the "lets grow the biggest deer we can" by letting them get the age to reach their potential. Bigger racks come with age so by default, it was pushing for more inches of antler.

Will make deer more nocturnal? Deer are nocturnal animals by nature. Lastly, I offer up Texas as my example. They've been managing and feeding deer longer than any state in the nation and bovine TB has been in the southern part of that state in cattle since at least the 80's. It's really unfortunate that they allow feeding too. The QDMA is right in their statement. Because they feed, you cant see a deer down there in the daylight anymore since they are all nocturnal, and you also cant see one because they've all died from diseases contracted at the 400,000 feeders that are run down there year round.

Baiting has been shown to increase the reproduction of nuisance animals such as hogs? Hogs run in sounders, boars are going to breed every sow they are around regardless of whether that is on an acorn flat, in a pine thicket, or at a corn feeder. To even make the statement that feeding increases hog reproduction is utterly ridiculous. If anything a feeder concentrates them in certain areas making them easier to pattern and catch or kill. I learned something reading the QDMAs statement on that. I never knew that corn was a hog aphrodisiac that helped get the boars and the sows "in the mood" to get it on.

Let me say this. I hope that I am not coming across and being antagonistic or argumentative. The spread of both CWD and Bovine TB is a very serious issue, but i think that we need to step back and take a global look at things. I am not for legalizing baiting but some of the arguments being presented against it, while they would seem logical from a "book or common sense perspective" simply dont hold water when applied against what has actually happened in the field, in real life, in the past 20-30 years, since deer management became popular. KInd of like the old belief that was pushed for years that you should kill all spikes because they were inferior. That came from game managers and biologists too and it has been repeatedly proven false over the years.

Then why isn't it illegal to feed deer period? Because there is nothing about sitting over a feeder with a gun that suddenly makes it spread disease. And there are so many people slinging corn now (and for the last 20 years as well) that any drastic increase in disease transmission would already have happened.

Because it isn't here yet.

But in the states that it is yes they do ban that kind of "feeding".

Exactly. I remember the condescending way people like myself were talked to by biologists when we used to state that the rut was occurring in late January and into February on our land in south Alabama. We were treated like a half retarded child that had wandered into a conversation about the moon and then suggested it was made of green cheese. No, they said, what we were seeing was a mild secondary rut. The main rut was occurring in mid December. And they knew this because.....well.....I guess they had read a book about it. And that's what the book said.

And then somebody finally conducted an actual study and found out.......the average date of conception for does in my region of Alabama was the first week of February. Gee, imagine that.

And in addition to giving a specific percentage I would also love to hear why feeders have this effect on deer but not food plots. That should be an interesting answer and I look forward to it.

It's a neighborly day in this beautywood,
A neighborly day for a beauty,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?

I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,

Smoke it up!

I guess I would say that it is the QDMA mindset of killing all does that has greatly diminished the quality of outdoor experience in the state and in that aspect how can QDMA ever be trusted or listened too EVER AGAIN for what is best for a deer herd in Alabama. That is a legitimate question that needs to be asked???

I was being relevant to the discussion. Corn or no corn, either way hunters will never agree. Rules are fine with me but when we let them take away the joy and heritage of hunting because no one can agree then it is no longer worth the effort. I won't join a club ever again. My young son killed a small spike by mistake and some members of the club could not just let it go. I had the only tractor that was worth a crap and did most of the work on the plots including getting them limed because they needed it in a bad way.. I had no problem with the time or money spent and was in total agreement with the fine for the spike. Everyone has an opinion but why can't hunting be the experience that it once was? Rules and more rules with no agreement is the problem. People just don't no how to be neighborly anymore.

Hey backporch.....If it don't open.....It must not be your door.....

Well that sure does cut both ways.

It's difficult to support a bill that takes away another person's right..say the right to feed his family and yes there can be even though most are silent. It is also difficult to support a bill that takes the right of individuals that have another perspective of quality or numbers.

My opinion is somewhere in this ballpark.

1) I enjoy the deer hunting traditions we have now, and when it transitions to Texas-style I will enjoy it less. Yes, I know I don't have to sit over a feeder.
2) I also think baiting will increase the progression to an "arms race" of everyone frantically corning more than they perceive their neighbors to be. Which makes hunting that much more expensive than it currently is.
3) Bating is bound to increase conflicts within club environments as well ("I can't believe you went in sat in that area and killed a buck ... you haven't filled that feeder up all season blah blah blah").
4) I can see where supplemental feeding of any sort (regardless of whether someone is within 100 yards with a rifle and an intent to kill) could help spread disease. A 10 ft diameter feeding circle is a much higher concentration than a 1/2 acre green field.

I don't really have any ethical concerns. As many have pointed out it's essentially the same as sitting on a field, which I already do some.

Like Elkhunter said, all this is just an opinion. Just like those who have emphatically argued for legalized baiting while that bill was up for vote.

Statements like that are absurd. QDMA supports sound wildlife management principles and practices, such as improving doe-to-buck ratios. I am not a QDMA member but they provide some excellent resources to hunters and land managers.

Fair question, jhardy. Concentrating animals of the same species can accelerate disease spread if/when it enters that local population. Same is true for domestic animals. Just ask a poultry farmer how quickly things can spiral from a few sick birds to loss of an entire chicken house. Also true for viral infections in humans. We know the stories personally. A student contagious with the flu goes to school. Within days, flu virus is sweeping through the school. Concentration accelerated transmission from one infected kid to a large number of students and faculty, who then spread it to others at home. You may recall schools last winter that closed for several days. Why? To break the cycle by reducing concentration of people. But, if that same sick kid stays home with minimal contact with others, then it slows or even prevents the spread.

Once again, I am as neutral as can be on the subject. But if the DCNR shot callers are so concerned with the herd health, why arent they making as big of a move to stop supplemental feeding and granny in the back yard with the same effort as a person without a gun watching his dog work? What's the feeding potential harm vs.guy without a gun potential harm? Feeding "potentially" could cripple the DCNR with deer complete die off. Guy without a gun at no point in anyway is going to hurt the wildlife of DCNR.

That comes across as the push for money exceeds what's best for wildlife.

Your ADCNR pushed the same idea just as hard, every biologist in the state said you could not kill too many does and hunters bought into it. State limit of two does per day for the whole season???? WTF?

good mornin Allen

how is stopping supplemental feeding going to IMPROVE herd health???

I don't care. Feed the deer if you want.


Boomy

Morning.. I was assertting that the 2004 2 a day doe limit and QDMA position were one and the same essentially. We were told at our hunter safety course that if a doe comes out with nursing fawns to go ahead and shoot her as deer were like rats.

A hunter Ed instructor actually told you that?
I taught hunter Ed for several years. We never pushed any kind of game management.
Our job was to focus on safety and ethics.
Personally I don't shoot any doe with a fawn.

Bingo!

Every biologist? Uh. No. Not even close. Years ago, Dr. Grant Wood gave a seminar for AGFC biologists. He told us that it was nearly impossible to kill too many does at that time. Did some agree with him? Sure. Most did not. Buck harvest exceeded doe harvest back then. Most biologists advocated a generally improved herd by protecting underage bucks and by improving doe-to-buck ratios. I reduced doe quota years ago on my own leases to offset the growing coyote predation problem.

In my opinion, state wildlife agencies failed to react fast enough in response to rising coyote predation over the past couple decades. Landowners and hunt clubs share some blame too. Even if the state allows 2 does/day, landowners and hunt clubs still hold the power to limit doe harvest on their own properties. Same goes for buck harvest. The government didn't cause all the problems and some can be fixed without government involvement.

A hunter Ed instructor actually told you that?
I taught hunter Ed for several years. We never pushed any kind of game management.
Our job was to focus on safety and ethics.
Personally I don't shoot any doe with a fawn. [/quote

We hosted 3 QDMA seminars at Troy about 15 or so years ago, it was about like a wild turkey meeting/fund raiser. Eat, listen to a few speakers and then it was SELL, SELL, SELL and make money time. I ask one of the biologist a similar question, "If a doe and two doe fawns come into a food plot, which one should you shoot?" He said "Shoot all three of them." I honestly can't remember what his name was.

I miss having the Deer Management Assistance Program (DMP). It had its challenges but overall was an excellent program and put more control in the hands of the local biologist. Hunt clubs dropped out as antlerless deer limits were expanded. Would be nice to see that program return.

How long were you in the area you retired from? You probably remember better than I do the DMAP farm from our area in about 1980. I mentioned it a few days ago on here. It was next to Gray Rocks.

DMAP was a good program, but the biologists in early/mid 80s still pushed doe tags to kill more does. Hell , we got 50 tags on 2000 acres of mostly hardwood swamp. We wouldn't of gotten 50 tags if SOMEONE wasn't for killing 50 does. We damn sure didn't make the recs. First season we shot hell out of does the landowner said we killed them all, I ain't seeing any deer at all. You could really see more bucks than does, esp on greenfields.

and I agree the dept(read biologists in charge) reacted way the hell too slowly to growning fawn predation by yotes, DISREGARDING ANY INPUT BY HUNTERS TO THE AMOUNT OF PREDATION TAKING PLACE. Because the biologists in chgarge had not run any studies to determine IF and how much there was predation.

two biggest lies by the dept in 80's to early 90s....
2. You cannot kill too many does by sport hunting
3. Yotes ain't making any dent in deer numbers

We have totally gotten off baiting but I have a question I've wandered about: IN CERTAIN AREAS of Alabama is it feasible that with no hunter kills, could the coyote actual hold deer numbers even or maybe decrease them? I feel that is the case where I live but have no facts.

I worked at Montgomery HQ and lived in Prattville. Am very familiar with Gray Rock and neighboring land. Did you lease the Joshua's Peace property? Rick Claybrook was supervising wildlife biologist for that district at that time.

No, I was referring to Milton Johnson's property. His son started the DMAP program on it about 1980. Gray Rocks has since bought a big section of that Johnson property. I was friends with the son. I dont remember who leased the Peace place though when Mac Lawliss bought his land there he leased it I guess until his death. I know the ones who have it now. Been meaning to get there to get some sharks teeth before those days are gone. The biologist from the Johnson property as I remember was killed in a car wreck. Maybe in Bear Creek but my mind don't remember well.

Yep. Some of the Johnson family attended First Baptist Prattville when we attended there. So did the Gray Rock cattle manager at that time, although I don't recall his name.

Winford Palmer. It's gone mostly to deer hunting now and his son, Mike Palmer, is the biologist over it now. Believe that is right but Gobbler on here would know more. And that brings us back to the coyotes. Gray Rocks is the only property South of Hwy 14 from Prattville to Dallas Co. That I would get out of the bed in the morning to hunt for deer. That's all river land, I live there, own land there, I generally don't waste my time. Lots of farms. Fields with heads of woods and easy hunting for coyotes Now, North of 14 has made great strides for the most part. Lots of timber land and cutovers and harder hunting for coyotes.