baiting bill in legislature

My son is doing an internship at the state house and evidently there is a bill coming up for discussion on modifying the supplemental feeding law for deer. They are trying to modify it to eliminate the "100 yards, out of sight" rule or something. Something to do with hogs too. I haven't seen it although he's supposed to email me a copy. Y'all know anything about this?

Dr. B

Last I heard they wanting a permit to put up a feeder

What a joke. Just make it legal.

requiring an individual person to get a permit to hunt over bait is a FUBAR plan from the get go. One guy in a club has a permit to hunt over bait but his buddies nearby can get arrested?? WTH is that?

http://www.aldeer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2372839&Searchpage=1&Main=173651&Words=%2BLegislature&Search=true#Post2372839

Make it a $50 permit to bait. If 80% of hunters buy a permit that would put about $20-25million in revenue that could be ear marked strictly for conservation. Hire more game wardens and give them raises. Take the rest and start a bounty program for predators and set a limit on how much each hunter and trapper can make each year from those bounties . This would help the turkey and deer population and if your gonna allow baiting make it worth doing because if the individual is wanting to bait it isn't going to matter if its $15 or $100 they will pay it.

if Montgomery has 100 million extra they still wouldn't hire more GWs. GWs are the ugly redheaded stepchild of the DCNR. I heard a past Director say thet he didn't even need GWs, that his biologists could make more deer than the outlaws could kill.

Agree, and I once didn’t feel this way. Let the wardens focus on the trespassers, poachers, and bag limit offenders.

Put hunting clubs in a data base and make each club pay a baiting fee depending on acreage of club ( The more land the higher the fee). Then make the fine for baiting without a permit so high you wouldn't want to chance it. Its eventually going to pass ( its like big citys in the bible belt on alcohol sales there's too much money to be made to keep fighting it) you might as well have a good plan to profit off it.

Yeppers.

That is sad Fred I hate to hear that

Just put it $10 a feeder and make sure $9 is earmarked for game and fish give the general fund $1. Make it where it’s voted on by the people and the state can’t touch any money except the $1 per they get. You would make a shucks load of money at just that rate. Make it a $1000 fine if caught Hunting over a non permitted feeder.

Those bills may be more about allowing the use of poison to control wild hogs than about hunting with the aid of bait. Why else would Dial's bill (SB61) exclude deer and hogs from 9-11-245? He knows excluding deer wouldn't fly, but may want the exclusion of hogs to slip through with the attention on bait. Bills often see amendments that make the bill nothing like the one introduced.

Feral hog poison field tests

Neither myself nor my club is paying Jack to the state to hunt over bait unless they remove all these bears from here .

Looks like HB21 by Rep. Williams has been amended to eliminate changes to 9-11-245. That doesn't mean that changes aren't still looming in the near future.

Poisoning hogs

A database for clubs? They still have some issues with GameCheck now in its second year.

Fifty bucks for a permit?

Good grief. What have we come to?

I still don't understand how a group that supposedly is majority conservative screams about about Big Government and votes for legislators who play to the base of Less Government, yet will turn around and voluntarily ask for more permits, fees and regulation.

How about we go to individual weapons permits and fees like Tennessee and Mississippi? You buy a license, and then pay extra for a bow permit. or a rifle permit. And a muzzleloader permit. And a crossbow permit. License plus x-permits. Hog hunting permits and fees. Fees for the "privilege" of hunting hogs at night - maybe a "Thermal Optics Fee." Might as well. More money. Fishing guides and hunting lodges should pay permit fees, too. Tournaments should pay fees, too.

If we're going to open the can of worms with a "feeder permit" then the gates will be wide open. And then it'll be "They're taxing us to death!"

Ain't that the truth Clem. What in Tarnation is this place coming to?

WNSP Outdoors had the rep that sponsored the bill on their program last week(they have a recorded podcast). To paraphrase, he made it sound like hogs were the biggest concern and could not kill them during deer season around a feeder due to deer rules. No other time during the year when the hunters would be out in greater numbers to actually kill the pigs.

I would gladly pay $15 and not feed IF it meant more GW's throughout the state. Mentioned two years ago, but was floored that Choctaw County had ONE GW. You have to be pretty unlucky to get busted.

The simplest thing would be to just legalize it. But then that requires common sense, and I believe none of the law makers have it. It's not ideal at all, probably even ridiculous. But they could just make like a $50 permit per property to legally feed how ever they want. If they restrict it to feeder only that would be the most ridiculously stupid thing they could do.

In the last 25-30 years, maybe longer, there have been several counties with one or zero game wardens. Some counties with one or zero would have GWs from other counties slide in from time to time to help with problems. Has been an issue for a while.

In the time I've kept up or followed the DCNR, the Law Enforcement Section has never been at full strength. Ever. And I've heard everything from "It's tough to find good recruits to get through the training" to "We can't pay enough and lose them to other states."

IMO the only way to specifically have any license/permit fees go directly to hiring GWs would be to have the money dedicated and unable to be pilfered by Legislature or used for anything else. If I remember correctly, that's how our current general hunt/fish license money is set up - it's dedicated only to DCNR and the Legislature can't get its hands on it. They've tried, before, and can't legally get it. Some states don't have this and get screwed by their legislatures during budget time.

Legislators have tried to legalize baiting for many years. They've always been shot down in committee or it never came to a vote on the floors of both houses, thanks to pressure-discussions-agreements or whatever from DCNR people and others. It's been one of the biggest things DCNR has fought with legislators about for years, almost in every Session.

Myron Penn, who I think was the rep or senator from Bullock County several years ago, introduced a bill almost every session and it always failed. It's been tried repeatedly and ultimately defeated or died after first or second reading.

It'll ultimately pass, one day. But they'll attach the "permit fee" to it, despite the GOP-controlled Legislature saying it's for less government, and then move on to the next hot-button issue.

The commissioner's definition of affected area rule just made things worse for those of us who don't hunt over bait. It caused more bait to be in the woods in places where we don't know it's there. I've had to waste time to scout for bait instead of hunting to keep from getting a ticket since the rule passed, and then you have to completely remove it and can't hunt there for 10 days when you find it.

Does it make sense to charge $15 to allow someone to commit a criminal act?

It's a big mess and we need to eliminate it altogether.

Anyone that hunts over corn ought to want to keep it illegal only reason it works is because everyone aint putting it out. once its legal itll be like hunting any other food plot once every hunter in the woods has a pile.

Call me what you want. I'm in lee county. The last time we had a bear down here we told them come get it or its going to die!

Either make it legal or illegal in every aspect. Quit trying to pussyfoot around by "defining supplemental feeding", or allow feeders with permits. if they made it legal, I would want to see a more stringent way to control limits. Stronger penalties for illegal kills and possibly a tag system instead of a Game Check system that doesn't work as advertised half the time.

BTW, I spoken to GWs that oppose the buying a permit idea. They, or he, doesn't like the idea of making it any easier for a rich man to kill a deer than a poor man. Since I'm in the poor man category, I'm in his corner.

Why would you kill it? It's not going to crawl into your camp or up your stand and eat you.

If it goes to having a permit per feeder then the GW will have to check every feeder or person to see if theyre legally/illegally hunting so nothing would change

Once all of these fees start, were will it end? Maybe they will start to impose fees on food plots? When it comes to money, the Government wants every cent they can get their hands on!

Oh, c'mon now Scout308. You shouldn't mind paying more for hunting privileges. It helps everyone!

Outstanding Post Clem. People clamoring for less government unless it serves there own needs. Both republicans and democrats are the same in this regard.

Less government should always be just plain 'ole LESS GOVERNMENT

Everyone? The only ones it benefits is the State!

I want more gws in the state cause im tired of calling and getting nothing done because you have 1-2 per county. Then you’re lucky if the one you have will get off his ass besides checking on his cows. I would be more then happy to pay $10 per feeder to get more accomplished and more poachers and night hunters off the rd.

Matt I'm gonna need you to get busy on our place next week!

I’m on it!!

I gotta go clorox my brain for what I was thinking reading that.....

Lol

Florida has allowed baiting for over 30 years no permit. The population is still going strong no major diseases. Corn kills deer is what some idiots believe. It's diseases from other animals or occur naturally that usually kills deer. Why waste law enforcements time with permits they need to be busting drug dealers and poachers. Bag of corn is expensive enough and is taxed already. Leave the sportsmen alone no more permits! I say give Wildlife Enforcement money off the extra revenue of sales tax corn will raise.

Not many around here wanna compare us to FL. They allow you to kill 2 bucks a day, allow baiting, and still has good deer hunting. The key difference from AL is they have only a few days to shoot does. My family in the panhandle used to hunt with me every year, but now they have much better hunting than I do. Somehow they have avoided the qdm people taking over and have not had the doe slaughter.

Amazing that such a simple concept can work so well. No GC, no buck limit, and they still have great hunting because the state doesn't allow people to kill all the does.

Duh, Clem. People have to kill every animal that might interfere with deer or turkey. We can't let the natural ecosystem exist. We, as humans, know what's best. LOL

I spoke with the local GW the other day about this. His theory is hunting over bait won't be allowed until the State can figure out how to make money from it

I am sure he is correct... I think it should be legal with no fees or taxes but that will never happen in this state, this being said the simple way would be to put a tax on feeders and bags of corn/ deer protein pellets say $10 on feeders and .50 cents on a bag of corn and make sure the tax is ear marked for the DCNR...

For those that think they will start killing more deer when they start putting corn out you are wrong...... at least in my experience.... it may help a little but very little.....

If you are hunting over corn and NOT shooting everything you see over corn... I've got no problem with it. Legalize it then limit everyone to 4 deer per season of your choice and let the Game Wardens focus on enforcing the killing side of things. Not how they wound up in the back of the truck.

And around and around we go!! If people would put in the amount of effort learning how to hunt that they do whining, crying and whining and crying about finding the easiest, laziest way to kill a deer they would actually see and kill more and better deer. But carry on learning nothing than where the cheapest place to buy corn!! Woodmanship be damned!!

That wouldn’t ever work cause corn is fed to way more animals than just deer.

Unrelated, but he just sold his house/133 acres. nice spot if someone wanted to live in Union Springs.

Penn Lakes

Moved to Montgomery, have heard talk of a run Mayor.

If this is the bill it looks like it will be $15 per license holder and nothing about how many feeders you have.

Did you read paragraph (c) ?

The devil is in the details.

Sounds like a dcnr dream scenario. They will get money for the baiting license and now have a new category for enforcement - baiting without a license. So the GW will still get to search for corn and make cases, but they will have another new source of revenue.

Who could be against such a marvelous plan?

😗

And the rules are sure to be set for price per feeder, not price per property to be allowed to commit an act so reprehensible it rises to the level of being a crime.

That's a great point. If you've got a camera survey going on, but not hunting, and haven't bought your "Korn" license for the year, you're in violation of the law.

I could survive there!

Dr. B

So how far has this bill made it. Will it actually pass this time

$15 this year...$25 next year...then $50...then $100...then $200...

It will never decrease.

I agree with others, either 100% legal or 100% illegal

According to Jack Williams, the sponsor of the Bill, the addition of the $15 fee was the only way he could get enough backinng to feel sure it would pass.

It passed the House last year without it.
But, then stalled in the Senate.

He claims to have enough support that it will Pass both this year.

We will see!

So what does this due for those of us that have a lifetime license. IF this is added to yearly licenses as a fee?

Seems like you will have to buy it each year if you want to bait.

All this bull shucks is more reason to hunt in TN.

Yep, he could ride a golf cart to work too.

Right behind his office there in the fork of 82 and 110 there west of town

I totally agree with you, but let’s get people in the woods first, and game wardens freed up.
And if you’re wondering, I don’t sit over corn now, nor will I if this passes. Mainly for GWs. Hopefully they’ll be able to spend more of their time looking for criminals instead of lazy hunters.

I'm not sure how this frees up wardens time. They will still have to investigate corn cases as usual, only difference is the person gets off if they've paid the fee. No way to know if they've paid the fee unless they check you in person.

Actually not a bad price either. I have hog hunted just west of there on Capstone Plantation many times. It's a WELL managed 5k acre tract. Maybe a half mile through the woods to Penn Lakes.

Amen!
I agree wholeheartedly.
Baiting good should illegal, period.
A stiff fine and some jail time would provide adequate prevention.

How about sitting in shooting houses playing on phones waiting for deer to come eat in a food plot? Criminalize that too?

Or sitting in a tree waiting for deer to come eat acorns.

If we're going to let the government make all of our choices for us, then where do we stop?

Woodsmanship, oh never mind!!

Food for thought.
How many private land hunters are willing to only hunt public land?? Private land hunters inarguably have the best hunting over public land hunters in the State of Alabama. If baiting is legal on private land should it be legal on public land?
If a person that can only kill a deer in the State of Alabama over corn they maybe should rethink what they call "hunting". I know a lot of "hunters" that sit in shooting houses, watch greenfields, whine about not seeing deer and want to put corn out, which is laughable when their greenfield are mowed down to putting green height because of the deer eating it. Does corn make them come running??????

So what happens when "hunters" aren't seeing deer over their corn pile that keeps disappearing every night? Does the State start allowing night scopes and spotlights? Then the GWs wouldn't have to worry about night hunters, then they could really focus on the outlaws that don't have gamecheck app on their phone or that haven't call their deer kill in and gotten a "confirmation number" in the State allotted time!!!

Deer hunting is NOT FOR HUMAN SURVIVAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it is not a recreational activity that hands out participation trophies, although it seems there are an awful lot of people that believes it should be.

Not asking for anything clem but we all know its coming so we might as well throw some ideas out that could help the hunting. There's common sense and then there's what will happen. I wish we could truly have a say in where the money goes but that will never happen.

This. Give away the feeders, but tax the corn. That's why vacuum cleaners are cheap, but the bags are expensive.

Just like gun control laws....honest hunters will pay for the permits and the outlaws will still bait without them.

Yep, no woodsmanship. Some folks can't kill a buck unless it's during the rut. I agree with you, we should outlaw that too cause there's not enough effort. That'll teach them and make them learn how to hunt. Good post Fun4all.

Taxes on hunting and fishing items other than those specified for federal excise taxes go into the General Fund. But I don't believe a bag of corn, or pallet of corn, or dumptruck load of corn, would be included in that.

And thus, "Deer corn" taxes would go into the General Fund unless there was some way to specifically designate all or a portion of said "deer corn" taxes to go to the DCNR.

You think the Legislature is going to give up any money at all? Hardly. With as much "deer corn" as is sold in this state even with the vague wording we have now on "feeding" vs "baiting," there's no way in hell the legislators would turn over all or part of that tax money on corn to the DCNR or any agency.

Where you buy a hunting license, and then also have to buy a weapon permit that costs more for whichever one you want to use.

And just like gun control, the TDM people will never admit their whole concept is flawed, they will always say that just one more law is needed and we will have Deer Utopia.

Deer hunting is a God-given right and any restrictions are supposed to be based on a compelling public interest. I don't see any more of a compelling public interest to forbid using bait for hunting than there is to require you or me to use bait for hunting when we don't want to.

How would you like it if the baiters were able to get the law changed to require you to use it? It's not the proper role of government to impose preferences of one group on another without just cause, but that's what you're supporting. If you think there is just cause to prohibit baiting, then name it.

Fair Chase, comes to mind right away.
Same reason it's illegal to use bait for hunting practically every game animal across North America.
And deer hunting is not a God given right. Although, in Alabama, we did amend the state constitution to provide hunting as a "right", it's actually considered a privilege in most states.

This is how I feel. When you limit out, you limit out.

Yeah, and then allow the farmers to kill 'em by the dozens to rot where they die. Makes sense, don't it?

A fine should be imposed for those that don't harvest corn before deer season.

N2TRKYS, you think sitting over a pile of corn shooting turkeys should be legal?

And the race to the bottom continues!

Actually, a pile of corn for turkeys isn't the most efficient method of "harvesting" them.

Put it in an opening in a straight line. That way multiple birds can eat at once. Get situated at the end of the line and fire away! You should have enough birds to haul out to last for a few meals.

Fair chase left the building hundreds of years ago. Rifles, scopes, tree stands, food plots, etc.

If the goal is to kill a deer within the bag limits, anything ethical should be allowed.

Just make it ILLEGAL. Problem solved . No game warden opinions as to who to ticket.

If it doesn't hurt the resource, I don't care if it's legal or not. I'm not gonna talk down on folks that are following the rules and are getting out and enjoying the outdoors.
But, you keep racing to your bottom.

You must have some great land and plenty of time to hunt. Otherwise, you wouldn't be spewing this garbage. Being pro bait does not make someone a poor woodsman. Not everyone has access to prime land or can be in the woods a half-dozen times a week. Alot of folks work and have family obligations. Personally, I've got about 3-4 hours one day a week that I can be in the woods. Yes, it would be nice to be able to increase my odds with a little corn. One minute you anti bait guys talk about how corn makes it too easy and the next how it doesn't really help. You probably all think it's just fine to sit over a cut corn field.

I don't have time or prime land and I have 0 desire to hunt over corn.

Making it LEGAL would solve more problems than making it ILLEGAL creates. No valid reason for it to be a crime. Problem solved.

Not trying to start a fight but how many people that would hunt over corn for deer are against it for turkeys.

Me. Turkeys have to walk in the daylight and they are incredibly stupid to begin with and they can’t smell. It’s not an apples to apples comparison

Why just deer? Hunting any game animal, including hogs and coyotes, is illegal and the commissioner violates the law when he issues permits to allow hunting over bait.

Congratulations. I respect your decision to not hunt over corn.

Baiting is illegal. You talking about the current 100 yard supplemental BS? If so that will never happen, that was only passed so the high fence operations could continue "supplemental feeding legally" year round lol

If they are going to limit you to x amount then it shouldn’t matter if you use bait or not. I have hunted over it legally in Texas, over cut corn fields in IL and without it in Alabama. If they legalize it I will use it as a method same as I do when I plant food plots, put fert around specific oak trees and walk a drag line of doe pee into my stand. All have worked for me in killing deer. Will I ONLY hunt over bait? No because there will be times when it will be smarter to hunt other areas where it isn’t.
If a guy pays for his license and shoots what he is supposed to shoot by law then more power to him. If he chooses to enjoy his time afield watching a corn pile then have at it brother. If you choose not to, then have at it brother. Some of y’all need to get off your high horse and just learn to live and let live.

We run feeders year round for the most part (stop when/if hogs move in but that's rare). If it becomes legal we may add a couple feeders but it still won't affect how I hunt 90% of the time. We have a feeder right off a field now (200 yards from stand and you can't see it because the field hooks around) the camera on it shows the deer to spend more time in field than eating at a feeder.

Our densities are VERY low so we utilize everything we can to recruit more deer.

Putting people in jail for hunting over corn jeez. A lot of folks are against the government imposing any kind of regulation at GC, doe days, buck limits just about anything you can name.Unless it is something they agree with then it is bring it on. More rules and regulations and put them in jail.

So True. Big fence = Big money = Big influence

I have no interest in shooting a turkey under any circumstance.

I am only interested in feeding the deer that frequent the property I hunt the absolute maximum possible. Adding in the ability to corn roads with my tractor every few weeks on top of planting plots would be a valuable resource to those property managers that are trying to increase deer populations any way they can in low density areas.

These poor deer need to eat y'all, I can't understand why so many lose their freaking mind over some food that is no different than wheat growing in the ground.

It’s to the point now that you have to feed if you want to keep deer on your property. I’m all for fewer laws and less government intrusion, and believe game wardens should be chasing serious problems like night hunters and poachers. But, I would be all for paying for a permit if it would go toward warden salaries, both increasing salaries and hiring more wardens.

Me. I don't shoot a gobbler unless I call him in. I hunt in Florida and Alabama and we have to use corn in Florida to compete with everyone around us.

Just make it LEGAL! Problem solved, no need for game warden to ticket anyone.

I'm with this crowd.

I dont really understand why there is even any debate on this subject. Just legalize it. 50% of the state is already hunting over corn (NO, not supplemental feeding but using it to influence deer movement in an attempt to make them easier to kill). It was bad to start with and has only gotten worse with the 100 yds and out of sight BS. Go to any gas station, walmart, or co-op during the season, they stock it by the pallet load and can hardly keep the stuff in stock. Then go back to those same stores 2 weeks after the season ends and they will be lucky to sell 5 bags combined across all locations. I personally will not hunt over corn but if that's what people want to do, then why not let them. It's not like it is not already happening all over the state. Trust me, if disease caused by deer feeding in close proximity to each other on corn was going to wipe out our deer herd, it would have happened years ago.

Hillary and Pelosi like stuff like that too.

To me, it seems like corn and food plots serve the same function. Attract and hold deer near or at the location where they will be hunted

So the State allows folks who can afford a tractor, a lease or property, fertilizer, and seed, to plant food plots and then hunt over them. The State also forbids Billy Bob, who works at the paper mill and only has access to public land or small private tracts, to scatter corn and hunt over that.

Years ago, I hunted a mountainside where there were oak trees with very large, sweet acorns. More than once, I saw deer walk past other oaks to crowd at the base of the trees with the sweet acorns. Shot several there. Was I hunting over bait? They were obviously there for the food, and were rejecting other food sources to get to the trees where I was hunting.

Seems to be a little elitist to me, and I own property with food plots on it, and a large amount of oaks, hickories and other food sources.

I also don't understand why anyone would be bothered by other folks hunting over bait/feeders/food plots/big acorn crop. The deer are coming to the food. It shouldn't matter whether the food is natural or introduced, you are still, in effect, hunting over a food source. If you don't want to scatter corn, then don't.

Uncle huck....well said.....ive hunted a place where we weren't allowed to make food plots any larger than what they were and they were tiny! Basically strips between pine rows...it was like plantation and we couldn't damage trees obviously.....so I'm with you what is the difference oh and did I mention we didn't own a tractor and had to pay someone which was fine...but yes they are both meant to hold deer and feed deer and hopefully get them to stop and take a bite...now the argument will come up that a plot is there until the summer etc.....well we keep our feeders full too all year and we abide by the law

If the bill is voted down you can just thank men like senator Paul Bussman who when i asked about this bill said he would vote it down because its not "hunting". He then proceeded to say that the current bill of 100 FEET was considered hunting, I just shook my head and walked away.

I've been hesitant to post this as I didn't want to ruffle too many feathers, but you took the words right out of my mouth.

The corn policy in this state smacks of moneyed elitism to the extreme. And this is coming from someone who has access to a few tractors and nearly every small farm implement you can imagine.

Does that include dove fields, and turkey?

And that doesnt even account for even 1/10th of 1 percent of all the baiting going on in Bama. That's the real problem for the wardens, they've got to actually spend the time at the site to catch them hunting over it. It might take a couple days or more to bust someone on a pile they have found, meanwhile, there are 5,000 other people hunting over bait in that same county. With only 1 or 2 wardens per county, its virtually impossible to even make a dent in it.

Average fine for baiting $196.12 per event. (that's basically the cost of 25 bags of corn) hardly deterrent for most that are buying 3-4 bags a weekend.

Average fine for hunting after dark $1,335.29/incident.

Do wardens have orders that require them to chase down baiting violations when they could be spending time enforcing other laws? I doubt it.

They probably choose to enforce baiting laws because that 's what they like to do and it brings lots of money in for their employer.

So our officers wrote five times more tickets/time chasing corn toters than night hunters. Now a few could have been putting out corn at night I get that, but probably not as many caught at night as hunting during day over corn. Now you know why you couldn't find a game warden at night or day they were tired from chasing corn toters during day and had to take off!

You’re assuming that all the tickets were deer hunting over corn. What about Turkey and Dove tickets. Heck, 1 warden could write multiple tickets on 1 dove field.

The state can't change the baiting illegality for migratory birds as that is federal law. It would just lessen the number of GWs you would have to worry about unless the state guys started taking their cases to federal court instead of district court.

And those same game wardens were writing permits for other people to hunt over corn.

That’s kinda my point. To argue deer baiting you would have to know the number of actual tickets written for hunting deer. It might be 1/3 or 1/2 or 3/4, but it can’t be all 400,000. Or am I wrong in my thinking? Is that 400,000 number just for deer hunting? I would think they lump them all together.

Since this is a report of fines for state offenses of a state law, I would think that fines for federal offenses are not included. Those fines likely go to the federal government.