Establishing clover plots

I usually plant a 6 way mix I get from the Aliceville coop but want to add some clovers to a few spots. That mix has some clover but I really never see it do much either in the fall or spring.

I have several plots that are 4-15 acres and would like to try to do half in clover and the other half in the mix or maybe just a wheat or cereal rye.

I searched for threads on getting the clovers going and there are threads all over the place. Does anyone know of a site with a faq or a thread on here where I can find this information? I am hoping for a good informative one like CNC's throw and mow thread, but for clover.

What is your soil Ph? Perrenial clovers like a soil ph of 6.5, crimson will do well on a 6. This could be why your clover is not doing well. Do a soil test. Follow the directions of the soil test by amending your soil. Durana is one of the best perennial clovers out there, but is slow to establish, that's why some people will plant patriot clover with it, becauses it establishes more quickly. I really like yucchi arrowleaf as an annual, if you can find it. Once you have your soil where it needs to be, getting clover started is as simple as sewing it. Maintaining perennial clovers can be challenging come spring because of weeds and grasses, that's why I believe its very important to begin with a weed and grass free field in the fall by spraying ahead of time before weeds and grasses have seeded out.

Soil test from last spring were all 5.9-6.6

Soil is black (which is rare for my area with so much limestone). These fields have been in cotton, soybeans, corn and hay for over 125 years). I think the soil is the best in my area.

All our areas were mowed 2 weeks ago and we plan to spray them this weekend if weather permits and soil is not too wet. We usually plant a couple weeks after we spray and kill everything. Out spraying usually consists of just roundup, would you recommend our adding anything else to it? Such as 2-4d?

You could be burying your clover seed too deep if your disking it in with the cereal grains......

Roundup kills most weeds, but not all. Without knowing what you have in your fields, that's hard to answer. If you can, add some 2,4,d. Do you plan on disking? If so, that will bring up dormant weed seed that will sprout with a vengeance next spring. IF your looking for a really clean field come spring, then wait a couple weeks after you disk and spray anything that is coming up, and then plant, without rediscing. The problem with starting this late in the year, is that some weeds and grasses are starting to go dormant and may not resprout, in a few weeks. I would try and plant some annual clovers in the lower ph plots and try to get those up to mid 6 range. I know this is a lot of trouble, but a little hard work now will pay off big time come spring. I don't disc anymore so I don't have to worry about that part of it. I use the throw and mow method, really saves a lot of time. In mid April, if grasses start to show up, hit them early with clethodim before the grass goes to seed.

Well the clovers in the same bag. I use a cultipacker and that might be the problem. I am thinking about spreading the wheat and any other large seeds and cultipacking. Then put out the clover hopefully right be for a rain without covering or cultipacking.

I like the idea of not disking and I am open to that but it wont work this year (too late). But I will give it a try next year.

I also have 3 new 10 acre plots that had either cows or hay in them for the last 20 years. That made a lot of compacted soil and an enormous weed seed bank. I planted RR soybeans in them this year with the thinking I could spray it 2-3 times a year and keep the seeds at bay. I tried to spread out my spraying so that I allowed the weeds to sprout but kill them before they produce seed. I hope that will reduce the quantity of the weeds in a couple of years.

CNC,

You wrote this in the T&M thread.

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I have a high deer density so I like to sow my cereals at 100 lbs/ac. You could go as high as 125-150 if you wanted to. Some other folks go with 75 lbs. Tailor it to your situation. Mix in 10 lbs of crimson clover.... 1-2 lbs of turnips.


Edited by CNC (02/12/16 08:11 AM)
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I know that thread is about T&M but would that work for this year? I will be disking this fall but will try T&M next year.

I was also thinking of adding some Yuchi to it for the spring...

PER ACRE
125# wheat (instead of cereal rye)
10# crimson clover
2# purple top turnips
10# yuchi clover
50# 21-0-0 (ammonium sulfate) at planting
100# 21-0-0 six weeks after germination.

It's a touch heavy on the clover but you'll be fine.

Good point, Harold about planting the clover too deep. 1/4" is as deep as you want it. I always top sew mine and walk away. Yea, that's heavy on the clover, especially crimson. I think 12 lbs/acre planted alone.

As I stated I will have to disk this year but will try T&M next year.

Would I be better off sowing the wheat and fertilizer then cultipacking. Then spreading the clover and PTT seed and not do anything else?

If my clover is a little heavy what rate would either of you recommend?

I think so. Spread wheat, cultipack, then top sow small seeds on top of the firm seed bed.

This ^^^^^^......About 15 lbs total on clover is fine although I don't think over doing it is really gonna hurt anything with clover.

I agree with Yelp. I would just drop it down to about 5 lbs each. In most mixes, clover makes up a small percentage of a 50lb bag, usually like 1-2% of each clover.

I just looked it up and both yuchi and crimson show 10-15 lbs/ac broadcast as proper seeding rate.......

Those are plant alone rates.

Yep.....those are full rates.

Question-

If you are going to all this trouble, why not perennial clovers? With fields your size you could dual crop sections of the fields and have perennials too.

Would the crimson and yuchi not reseed themselves and be perennial?

Yes they will reseed, but are annual clovers, not perennials. Durana, planted in the fall will be slow to establish because it takes several months to establish it's root system, but will take off come spring, as will other white clovers and will be there all year, as long as adequate rainfall is available. Soils that don't hold moisture very well and are east/west oriented with no shade, are not prime candidate's for planting durana. Durana is more drought resistant than most other white clovers.The stem count of durana per square feet is amazing and it spreads very well.

Ok in the past when I planted clover I had to inoculate it before it would grow worth a darn. I do not know what the innoculate was You just mixed it in just before you broadcast it.
I would put the clover seed in a hopper with the grass or other seed and stir it up and throw it out.
Clover fixes nitrogen in the soil so be careful how much ammonium nitrate you put out. It also likes potassium.

Most all clover seed comes pre-inoculated nowadays. Nitrogen helps grasses and weeds, clover doesn't need it. I usually use 0-20-20, or 0-46-0, or 0-0-60.

Well then should I add that to the mix? Maybe instead of Yuchi?

I like the yuchi better than the durana so far. The durana just seems a lot less tolerant to less than ideal situations. In order for durana to thrive then you really need for 1) pH to be 6.0 or better…….2) to have a decent clay content in your soil……..3) for the plot to be in a spot where you hold decent moisture….as in NOT on top of a dry hill. Yuchi will grow better in your sandy soils where the durana will not produce as well. A pretty sweet mix in an area as large as your planting would be 5 lbs crimson, 5 lbs yuchi, 3 lbs durana or there abouts……

I would definitely add it to your mix, especially in any shaded plots that run north and south. That limits the amount of hot summer sun on the plot which dries it out and can kill durana during the late summer, especially during dry years. Like Harold, I love yucchi, and I wanted to plant more this year, but nobody had it locally. Yucchi adds a lot more food than crimson clover, it gets knee high if the deer don't keep it mowed down. It usually dies out in late June, but this year some didn't die, that was shaded, and most survived until August.

Blumsden hit it on the head. But... I've had great luck with durana. Got fields going on 10-11 years on less than perfect sites.

If north to south works best for durana I have a powerline that is maybe 45-50 feet wide and 400 yards long. I usually just put wheat in it but could do durana there. Is that wide enough for it to get enough light. There are 20 year old pines on both sides.

It should be. Clover works well in the shade. The only thing I would be worried about, would be the guys maintaining the ROW. They don't do that when your wheat is there, but during the spring and summer when the durana will be doing great, the crews will move in and drive all over it.

I have about 10 acres that I have in a crimson/arrowleaf mix that's been in existence at least 10 years. I am actually bush hogging some of the fields today. After I Bush hog them I come back a week or 2 later and spray gly, then run the disk over it very lightly and add some extra seed. I think there is enough of a seed bank now that I could get by without adding any, but there usually a bare spot here and there so I add about 10 lbs of seed per acre each year.

If you look at the seed of the 2 clovers, you will see that the crimson seed is much larger. If you put out an equal amount of each, then you are actually planting a lot more of the arrowleaf. That may be exactly what you guys want that are planting equal amounts, so I ain't being critical at all. I think the arrowleaf produces more deer food, but turkeys do love the crimson. I buy one 50 lb bag of arrowleaf and 3 bags of crimson each year and mix them all at that 3-1 ratio. All the deer plots get some of this mix too.

One thing I have noticed is that some fields will grow one of the clovers much better than the other. I've got one field that will not grow crimson at all, but arrowleaf does well in it. And others do much better with the crimson. Mixing them gives me a better chance that one will do well. I use this mix on plots in Perry, Coosa, and Tallapoosa, so l know it works well on a lot of soils.

Now I have a question for the clover experts - I've never had a cultipacker before, but Surefire borrowed one and I can use it this year. I usually do the light discing and then just top sow the clover and don't cover it. How would you guys recommend using the cultipacker? I was thinking of running it over the plots after discing and sowing, but I also thought of skipping the discing and just putting down the seed and running the cultipacker over it.

It seems that some in this thread run the cultipacker over the field and then sow; that seems to defeat the purpose of it to me, but maybe I don't understand. I planted a couple of deer plots 10 days ago and ran the cultipacker over after I lightly covered the seed with the disk, and they both are very green already. In the past, I've usually been able to see the tractor tire tracks as the grass comes up; the tires pack the moisture in and that spot comes up better than the area that doesn't get that compaction. I thought the main function of the cultipacker was to compact the entire field so that moisture is the same everywhere. If that's the case, wouldn't you always want the cultipacker to be the final step?

Thanks, and good luck to the OP with your clover.

I've always ran the cultipacker after planting with good results. I have access to an old Brillion Pulverizer and a home made 12 ft wide roller. Both yield the same results.

PCP-

Cultipack- sow- cultipack. Creates best seed to soil contact without burying seed too deep. Sowing on a less than perfect seedbed right before a good rain works well too.

I like going in and frost seeding in Jan/Feb when the ground is going to freeze that night. Great way to fill in bare spots with clover.

Thanks! So in plan A I don't use the disk at all? Plan b is about what I've been doing. But I never had access to a cultipacker before.

PCP, are we strictly talking clover planting? I've read that discing can actually stimulate the reseeding varieties of clover. If we're talking clover seed only, I would disc, cultipack, sow, and cultipack. If I'm short on time, I would feel okay about eliminating the second round of cultipacking.

Planting clover only, but on areas that have been growing it 10 years. The discing does help reseeding, but I add a little seed too.

I guess I don't understand purpose of first trip with cultipacker.

PCP, the first trip with cultipacker would only be if you disc. That would level and firm you seed bed and then the second pass would press seed into seed bed. I do neither. I top sew without discing and walk away. The rain washes any seed to the soil that didn't get there on its on.

Based on what I've read, it's simply to firm up the seed bed which supposedly yields better germination. By broadcasting directly on loose soil, a percentage of seed will likely get buried too deep and fail to grow. I think the rule of thumb for seed planting depth is approximately 2 times the diameter of the seed. When you look at it that way, it's easy to see that a small seed like clover cannot withstand a 1 inch planting depth. Firming the seed bed first will ensure that less of your seed gets planted too deep, thus increasing your germination rate, in theory.

Thanks for the replies. My dad used to do nothing but bush hog his pecan orchard and he always had a great stand of crimson in the spring. I've thought that light discing helped the seed to germinate sooner and give me a better stand during deer season, but I've never really approached from a scientific basis and tried to test the different methods. It seems to me that rain is the most important thing; get plenty of rain and any way will work.

I might try some different methods in different fields. Any thing that cuts down on trips is good. I will try at least one by putting seed out and running the cultipacker over it. It would be nice if that will work.

The purpose is the 1st pass with the cultipacker, like stated before, it to make a firm seed bed. Think of how many seed get covered to deep after the first disking just by falling into a 1/2" crack then covered even by a light dragging.

That makes sense. But I have a reasonably firm seed bed after just running over it with the bush hog. I'm thinking I can just bush hog, spray, put out seed, then cultipack. That would save the trip with the disk and also the first pass with the cultipacker. These are all sandy loam soils, so it's not like dealing with hard clay.

Does anyone do it this way? I'm sure it would work to some extent. If I can eliminate 2 trips with the tractor and still make 90% of what I would have, that's a trade I will make.

I have done this^^^ with decent success. When I pay for premium clover seed and expect one planting job to last for years, I prep the seedbed as best I can.

I have never had to touch up a clover plot planted with a properly prepared seedbed. I have over-seeded bare spots some using T&M methods.

I planted 6 plots of White tail institute 5 (acres total} in the spring 4 years a go with a good seed bed and cultipacker. Fertilized as recommended and mowed or sprayed twice a year Th. Deer and turkey are loving it year round. Big bucks are going to the plots. Strip type fields and or scent checking does around the fields during rut time. .The bucks and does harvested are fatter. the best thing is the cost per year is way down and my labor etc.