Yote article from GON.

yotes

So, the same geniuses that told us for 20 years that "you can't kill too many does" are realizing you can, and blaming their failure on coyotes.

I don't deny that coyotes play a role in killing deer, but the doe slaughter has also been a huge part of it.

Dang harvest at ft Rucker is alarming. I remember Dr. Ditchkoff saying a few years ago while I was at auburn that the whole concept of making sure to shoot enough does might be something that has been adhered to so great that it's having an impact coupled with the yotes

Common sense just ain't very common in wildlife management. I don't believe there is any other branch of science that is so often wrong about what it teaches as "facts."

I guess it's because it's so hard to carry out truly valid research on wild animals. A small study is done somewhere and reaches a conclusion and everyone in the field jumps on it and tries to apply it everywhere. And it's only years later that they realize they were wrong.

And you're classified as an idiot that knows nothing about wildlife if you have observed something that contradicts the study. But if I have no info myself, I will refer to their studies until proven otherwise.

As far as coyotes, they couldn't have known the impact. I'm not justifying the doe killing but I have been with this from the beginning this round of coyotes in Alabama. At first they were interesting and a novelty. Then about the mid 90's their impact started to show. Has only gotten worse. No one saw it coming to this. We learned. Sadly the state are slow learners and even slower to respond. Now here we are. NO ONE 35 years ago would have thought the coyotes would/,could do this. Throw in hunters, car collisions, disease, natural mortality, etc. has really hurt some areas population.

Coyotes get the blame for killing animals because they are often observed eating the carcass. A coyote is just a 4 legged buzzard. They rarely kill anything. They are avid scavengers.

I have to disagree. They kill often, namely mice and moles. They will stay after these two until they get'em and is probably their #1 year round food source that isn't scavenged. If they get lucky they will catch a squirrel, rabbit, or bird. When fawns hit the ground they will hammer them. Catching an adult healthy deer is possible but not as likely. But, as you said, they do scavenge a lot also. We have discussed the Ft. Rucker study on here before. The coyotes destroyed the fawns in the study. Why they were able to do it there is debatable.

damn boy, did you just say that out loud?????

yotes KILL the living chitt out of fawns, every county, every year, every chance they get.

Year before last I had a young buck get taken down in my food plot by yotes. You could see where the struggle had occurred for 50-60 yards across the plot as the yotes tore white hair from his hind end. There was a whole trail of white hair and scuffed up dirt leading to the half eaten carcass. I saw another really similar site out here this last year with a long line of white hair but no deer. I figure it must have escaped the attack or they eventually took it down farther away. It actually looked like they had attacked the deer while it was working a scrape. That's where the hair trail started.

yotes can, and do, kill adult does and bucks. Anyone who says different is a blind eyed idot. Do they kill a lot?? DamnifinIknow. Do they kill a LOT of fawns?? Hail yea they do.

I'd say just about any adult deer that gets weakened down by sickness or injury is a sitting duck for the yotes.

You can see the trail of hair across the plot……..




….leading to the deer in the edge of the woods. I believe there was something wrong with this deer. I had been getting pics of him for a while and he looked really small and weak. Yotes eventually took him down.

They will kill some healthy ones also but they are animals of opportunity. They have more close encounter opportunities with the unhealthy it stands to reason. Winter is usually the toughest times for most animals but I have wondered if its not the best time for a coyote. They can eat fawns in the fall, hunter shot deer, gut piles and carcasses, and older weakened wildlife that winter claims. And don't think they won't eat corn right off the stalk. Seen that. I hate them SOB's.

IMO coyotes and yard dogs are the main reason deer have never gained a foot hold in my area. We had coyotes before the state allowed deer to be stocked in this area. Still don't have a decent population of them. We finally got a barely huntable population and the infinite wisdom of the state extended us from 3 doe days one year, to 2 a day all season long the next and from then on, until they shortened it year before last.

Coyotes kill adult deer. Obviously the unhealthy ones are killed easiest but on more than one occasion I have seen healthy deer running through woods and across fields that had coyotes trailing them. Coyotes kill the piss out of fawns. That's just a fact.

Something that article confirmed for me is the property manager , whom ever that might be, must " keep his finger on the pulse" of the herd.

The paragraph about fawning cover got me to thinking, does those areas in LA with low deer numbers have good fawning cover? How's vast acreages of pines for cover? I think it would only be good at certain stages of the plantation cycle.

I've often said that's one reason they do so well in our area, these hardwood mountains , with it's patchwork of different timber stages is great cover. In many areas void of cover managers want to create it some how, we don't need any more, we have plenty.

Show me the evidence. Just because a bunch of auburn grad students caught some yotes eating dead fawns at ft rucker does not mean that coyotes kill the hell out of fawns. I spend more time in the woods than almost anybody I know. I find little evidence that yotes kill deer, any size deer. In fact, I find the greatest deer density areas to be the very places with the greatest number of coyotes. Explain that one, Jedi master Troy. I have walked outside in my backyard (which is several hundred acres of woods) and watched a pack of coyotes waltzing past several feeding deer. The deer pay them little attention. I'm not defending coyotes, but I challenge anyone to show me proof positive that they "kill the hell out of fawns" anywhere.

If your deer numbers are declining, its one of two things. Too many hunters killing too many deer (or) too many hogs vacuuming up the winter food source.

You can monitor fawn recruitment rates through visual sightings of club members and then compare the rate pre-trapping and post-trapping to gauge the effect yotes are having. I think Elkhunter reported that his club doubled fawn recruitment rates after intensive trapping. Wouldn't that be proof that yotes were having an impact?

Obviously your mind is made up even though you are wrong. Many studies on this. I like all studies done in Alabama because I just feel its more of what we have. One of the more interesting studies to me was John Kilgo in South Carolina. 2 things stood out to me was up to 75% fawns died by coyotes is some areas and if a fawn can make it to one week old their survival rate increase drastically. As far as coyotes be more prevelant with higher deer numbers, that has been addressed also in studies. Coyotes move to the food. Food makes them healthier. Healthier coyotes have bigger litters and higher pup survival. That one is really just common sense. Same as domestic hogs will out perform wild hogs due to vaccines and food.

I kill and trap coyotes. I really don't care if coyotes go extinct. I just hate to see people swayed by propaganda. I encourage you to reflect on your own experiences. How many fawns can you say that you know were killed by coyotes? How many fawns have you found dead, from any cause?
Have you ever questioned these "studies"? Have you learned how they conduct and control the "studies"? What if they started with a desired result and built a study to support it? Would you then question the results?

Why does the deer population continue to thrive in those same areas? Wouldn't that seem to defy common sense?

I can assure you it's not LACK of fawning cover. That's a promise I can make 100% sure of.

Bullets and yotes. A doe and her fawn may be able to survive a yote down here, but the others likely gonna catch up to one or both of them during the season.

Hey Outback - this camera had as many pictures of dead fawns than it had Does in a two week span.

There is some thoughts on that also by these studying people. I can't remember which studies I've read so many but there were 2 keys: Good cover (that was discussed on here not long ago about Ft. Rucker not having good cover) and getting as many fawns on the ground at the same time as possible (how can we do that?). Do I question these studies? ABSOLUTELY!!!! Not that I'm concerned about it being steered as much as does it apply to my area. That's why I favor Alabama studies but even with that Mobile and Cullman can be different. I could go on and on but I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. We will have to agree to disagree. Nothing personal, just the way it goes sometimes.

The fawning cover is a problem in a lot of places. Take the people on this forum for example. Most know what is needed. The others know they can ask for suggestions about cover....like I did some of y'all about planting in hills. BUT, its all for nothing if its a lease and the landowner won't allow what is necessary to be done. Hunters hands are tied.

I can't count the number of times I've been scouting and heard something running towards me. I step behind a tree and a fawn or yearling ran by. a few seconds later a group of yotes are dogs attempt to run by on their trail. They aren't doing it for fun. Yes, yotes kill fawns and yearlings. Photos's indicate they kill bucks weak from the rut or fighting too.

So you are 100% sure ALL of LA, say south of Montgomery has adequate fawning cover?

I watched coyotes chase a fawn around one morning years ago while bowhunting. From that day forward I shoot every coyote I see. From my experience not only coyotes but also bears do a number on fawns.

You're gonna have to explain yourself. I am not saying you are wrong but one of the reasons we don't have quail anymore is due to poor brooding habitat. You're saying this doesn't apply to fawns in the least?

I don't know about other places but I know marshall co has real problems with a lack of fawn cover. we have tons of pastureland and really the only decent cove we have in a lot of places is sucession in cutovers at least until the privet comes up and creates a canopy so thick nothing grows under it. failing fawn cover and a VERY robust coyote population drive our numbers down baddddd. im getting to the point where I don't get pics of fawns and fewer deer period. get pics of lots coyotes an bobcats occasionally ill get a pic of a yote totin a leg or a piece of a fawn. nobody gives a crap about it around here tho. they jus keep growin chickens an pourin the litter to tha pastures. we got some mighty fine lookin cows tho an lotsa purty chicken houses.

I'm sure there's areas across South AL that have too much open land/pasture/ag as a percentage of the landscape that may limit fawning cover.

But rest assured - South AL has plenty of - younger stage pine plantations, private owned clearcuts left to naturally regenerate, pines in a mid rotation age with substantial cover, and owners who manage their timberland either directly or indirectly in a manner to create fawning cover. The "woods" here are constantly evolving and changing stages/ages, driven by the market of timber production. Not all of those stages of timberland are fawning habitat, but there's a constant patchwork of different ages of timberland, including 1st and 2nd thinnings and clearcuts.

What I said was it's not a lack of cover. You don't have to seek out good fawning cover. The management practices here create it. We are talking about landscape level fawning cover across huge areas, where populations have declined. Not small pockets where there may be less cover available. It wouldn't take long for me to ride a person around in areas where populations are low, and show then adequate fawn nursery habitat.

I don't think quail brooding habitat and fawning cover are necessarily the same thing. Land managed for quail may be good fawning cover also, but adequate fawning cover won't necessarily be good quail habitat.

Here's the dang problem.

Calling outback and pcp !

Although the picture doesn't prove anything other than coyotes will eat dead things, it does provide better evidence than anything I've seen published by grad students. When I read Auburn's Ft Rucker study I had to wonder how those people manage to dress and feed themselves.
But, as I've said, I'm not defending coyotes. I know they eat turkey eggs and that's reason enough for me to kill them all, every last one.

Don't they inspect the yote scat to determine what its been eating?

There is a lack of fawning cover all over the South.

I experienced a big deer population drop off in the mid 2000s (2005-07) which I reported here. Some may recall my report in the Fall of 2007,the Great Drought year, that I reported that virtually no does had fawns with them. At the time I was not sure of the exact reason(s) but I suspected that it had to be the coyotes who had finally settled in heavy in my area, and maybe also something to do with the big 100 year drought.

Coyotes proved to be the case. And that coupled with me over killing does had resulted in a major population drop of about 75% fewer deer.

So the first thing I did was stop shooting does and I also started doing strategic timber thinning and annual burning of all pine plantation.

The net result is that slowly over time the population started going up, and I started seeing more fawns. Eventually.

But the population is still not what it was pre 2007 and I still see a lot of does without fawns each hunting season.

That has been my experience.

Personally I don't know the regional scat inspector. But that would only indicate what they EAT, not what they killed.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've not seen too many folks take the stance you're taking.

I do respect my guys and gals in the wildlife biology field. But, I do believe there is a flaw in the process. It takes years to study a topic, more years to validate, more years to publish and by the time they have done all that the information is outdated because the topic has changed and no longer the same.

Example, I remember when I was a young adult going deer hunting and seeing 30-40 doe a day. Back then we had 3-5 doe days per county or something like that. But, they were held after Christmas and by then the deer had been hunted a couple of months and wary. Of course, this the same time the coyotes started showing up in these areas. After several years the doe days/seasons were changed. We started killing a lot more doe deer. Row cropping was declining and pine tree farming was increasing. Hunting clubs were becoming a lot more common. Land just wasn't as accessible as it used to be. More coyotes in the state.

Basically, what I am trying to demonstrate is that there were lots of variables in play and decisions were being made off of older data. There has to be some common sense applied in real time.

South Carolina had over 50% collared fawns killed by coyotes so there are other studies than the Auburn ones. Maybe you just have to much Bama in you to believe it. One study had cameras on a coyote den and the pair killed 60 fawns. That's enough for me. I hate them for killing my livestock and will go out of my way to kill them.

No, they are opportunists. SMDH.... if anyone ever asks if you were wrong about anything this would be it. Congratulations... you are an idiot on this topic.

Correct, " lots of variables in play".

I think having thick understory grasses and briars really makes a difference. Otis is a little shorter than a yote but not too far off from the size of one. By far the toughest habitat for him to “hunt” in are these areas with very thin pine over stories that get burned frequently. It’s almost a different kind of search because he isn’t able to use the same techniques of casting circles, etc nearly as effectively. I suspect yotes struggle with similar challenges. Hell, even AJ with his larger hounds doesn’t like tracking in that type habitat because its so tough on the dogs.

My problem with studies, is they often happen in a big pen environment.

I can be wrong. Have been many times. And never said coyotes don't ever kill, I just don't think they kill as often as they get blamed. That's based on my years of experience, watching coyotes interact with other wildlife. I have personally seen them kill a newborn calf. So I know they will, but they also take advantage of a carcass anytime they can. I reject the notion that they kill 70% of fawns anywhere.

Outback, the high fence place I managed 2005-2011 had a coyote problem ongoing...killing fawns. 2009 I estimated we had less than 6 fawns make it because of ONE big male coyote. He killed damn near every fawn born that year...better than 90% of the fawns born. Thats OVER 70%. I was on the place and IN the woods every day that summer trying to kill or trap that damn yote. Finally killed him. Next year we had a good fawn crop due to far fewer coyotes(one) alive on the place.

I found where he killed three fawns in a 30 yard area, and ate a bite or two out of each and left em laying. He rarely ate more than a few bites out of any he killed.

Now I know it was a dreded high fence place and don't count for chitt in the "real" world to some of ya'll, but yotes in poor fawning cover will kill the chitt out of fawns.

I personally have witnessed on 2 occasions, coyotes chasing and catching deer in my hunting career. One particular year, we had 4 different members witness coyotes catching and eating deer. I believe they do have a significant impact on the deer herd, especially since they hunt them year round. I also agree that the "brown its down" philosophy has a significant impact as well. I shoot every coyote I see, and am glad to do it.

We think we are so much more sophisticated and intelligent than we were even 50 years ago with all our "technology" and better means of research. I would disagree. We have lost a lot of valuable knowledge throughout the decades about real world topics. I'd put us intelligence wise about right around borderline dumbarse in 2017. We use to have people that could fly us to the moon with a pencil and paper. Today.. we couldn't make it in my opinion with all the computers in the world. People don't know how to think and use common sense anymore.


Coyotes catch and kill deer healthy or otherwise. Old books are fairly difficult to read at times, but I like to read old things that are out of print as far back as early 1800's. The topics suit me. Farming before fertilizers, hunting, homesteading, books on animals.

A good one is called The Clever Coyote. It is about painful to read because it is about animal behavior. In the wild and in a controlled environment like a lab where they test their intelligence. Originally published in 1951. I think the title is fitting and pretty much tell you all you need to know about them. I originally read it 30 years ago because I like to trap them. I still have it on my bookshelf.

I could also point you to countless references in books from the 1800's and early 1900's that talk about coyotes catching "deer" with no reference to winter or snow which typically I have taken to mean Mule Deer since the books were about hunting the Rockies before they were tame or from the writings of Mountain Men.

Somewhere along the line some Professor that lives in the city went out and did a couple studies and proclaimed they were scavengers. And that is what we were lead to believe.

Don't believe much of anything you've been taught or told. That's my advice on life in general.

I don't know how many deer coyotes kill, but I do know that one woke me up last night howling and barking about 30 yds from my window. I yelled at him to shut up and he mocked me by howling again. I despise those things.

They are one of the few animals who have a nose good enough to find fawns that have been bedded down by momma and left for a while.

The amount of fawns they predate in areas where they are common is mind blowing. The only other one to come close is black bears. Again - the nose. Fawns have very little smell for the first few months and that's part of the survival strategy. Any animal that can exploit that will do so.