Which Animal is More Common in The State of Alabama as We Enter The New Year?

I have been having an interesting discussion with Ron over the last few days. This got me to thinking about which animal was more common in Alabama these days, the coyote or the deer?
We have both coyote and deer kill threads going at this time. The coyote kill thread says we have killed 168 specimens. The firearms kill thread shows 52 posts. In your opinion which one is more common, as we enter the New Year. The coyote or the deer?

Damn you're weird

Yeah some of us don't shoot every deer we see but yotes usually are shot on sight. Ymmv.

Most kills aren't listed in that thread.

Well let's see. You are aware of the history of the whitetail deer, I assume. Feel free to point out my mistakes.
The whitetail deer thrived in America prior to our, ancestors arrival. They arrived and started consuming the deer. They salted or preserved their food by drying, etc. They were at a disadvantage in those days, no freezers to fill. They continued to live of the deer for quite awhile. Muzzle loaders were used during the civil war and the mini ball was invented. It was devastating to both armies and the deer as the armies foraged for food. Unregulated market hunting became popular as time passed. Game laws didn't exist and around 1900, someone said this is just plain stupid we're wiping out our deer herd. State governments stepped in and stopped the carnage. But, it was too late. Restocking efforts were undertaken and the herd thrived. Somewhere along the line so called deer biologists, deer managers, Quality Deer Management Associatons, etc. were created. These guys were taught you can't kill to many does, they are so so wary and elusive. Let's give every redneck hunter in Alabama a two deer a day antlerless season. After all the season only lasts 3 and a half months. Let's do this for the next ten years and see what happens.
Trox you have in rebuttals?

Yea I've killed more deer than I've posted.

I would say deer.

I haven't posted a single deer I've killed in the kill thread. There's WAY more deer. Way.

Well, I agree. Now let's see. Let's shrink our location. How about in the Talladega National Forest, northern zone in Cleburne, Calhoun, Clay and Talladega. Which species is more prevalent there?

Codie , the coyote has not been around here very long , it's thriving though and I would love to see a study of home ranges over a given area as it has expanded eastward and I would bet that it has strunk in size a lot and is continiung to shrink as it learns and adapts at kilking fawns and targeting adult deer in some environments.. There are still more deer but in some places the population is becoming nearly unhuntable , and I would be willing to bet the coyote is a big piece of the puzzle .. I got to thinking about the size of doe groups and maintaining a size of doe groups for the deers protecting agaisnt coyotes .. I'm sure there are people on here with more insight on this, and then there are the people here who just like to argue and disagree with with eveyone no matter what too . I see where you were headed with your post though. I would almost bet my house on it , that if we don't stop killing does or atleast have a couple of doe days within just a few short years . Hunting will be unenjoyable in a large portion of the state .
Does anyone know how much the eastern coyotes average weight has climbed over the years ?

^^^^^^^^^^
This!!

Fire ants.

Mesquitos this year, half the fire ants drown.

BEARS Well at least where I hunt .......

I thought this was supposed to be the 'Serious Talk Forum' ???

I'd be willing to bet there's a lot more deer than coyotes. If we had anywhere near as many coyotes as we did deer, it wouldn't take long for there to be no deer, no yard pets, not much of any small game

There are alot more deer.

Lady bugs.

x2 what Matt Brock said.

troll question.....

There's probably a scientific principle involved but good old logic would lead one to think that a situation in which there are more predators than prey would not be possible unless the coyotes start eating each other.

What's any of that have to do with coyotes??

There's way more deer. Stupid question. Next.

I thought your question was a decent topic but trox sniffed you out and boy did you ever prove his point with ^^^^^ stuff. You are educated but def a little weird.

To your original question, I'd agree with everyone else and say the deer kill thread is not in anyway accurate to the total numbers killed by folks on this site. Lots of people don't want to advertise that they are stackin them up like cordwood because there could be some cause and effect by posting a kill or multiple kills online. There is very little chance of any repercussions to someone posting a yote kill.

I believe yotes are no doubt a problem and with no natural predators around these parts will become a bigger problem. Hunting them with a rifle alone will never allow you to keep the numbers down. Trapping them is the only "ethical" method to somewhat control their numbers.

I see way more Cougars than deer or coyotes.

Most of the Cougars I see are actually the common black panther.

Look a squirrel.

You know what I'm surprised i post something about a bounty on a republican site, and I don't ridiculed down to being a Obama loving queer. I'm real suprised at the minimal amount of responses. I think we need to see some ideas as to deal with them .. I read where in two weeks a hunters association in Pennsylvania is holding a Yote killing contest for three days .. 50 dollars for every Yote .. 2000 to the winner .. 500 for the fattest Yote overall . 100 dollars to the fattest Yote each day .25 dollar entry fee . Now that sounds like a damn good idea .. But I think we should have em every weekend from feb 1 thru March 15

Nailed it. I'll go years without seeing a coyote that includes driving not just in the woods.I've seen a grand total of three coyotes in the woods in 20 years of hunting and I killed all 3 of those. I'd say automobiles kill more deer in a month than coyotes kill in a year

Just cause you ain't seeing them don't mean there not there . I've lived here two years and only seen two , and I can guarantee you they are everywhere . Vary rarely I walk down the powerline or a logging road and not find fresh scat within a few hundred yards . I can't wait till better studies are done .

Comparing a coyote and deers brains is like comparing my English to Clem's . There is just no comparison his sucks .

Ron you're still just scratching the surface!

You want an idea that'll put coyote populations back to next to nothing? Get the state to allow live market trapping and that'll do it! You'll have coyote trappers lined up to trap your place and they won't charge you a single dime to do it.

Who cares if coyotes get put in a pen and run with hounds. As long as the pens are approved and legal why shouldn't we be able to sale them live coyotes.

Judging just by roadkills, deer outnumber coyotes about 3 to 1.

Ron, I tried to help you out. Lot of good ribbing on this site, it seems. I'm new so, I assume it takes awhile to fit in and get accepted. I don't think there's much chance of our fellow Aldeer brethren going for your bounty idea. l assume most here are like me and hate big government. I don't like paying taxes myself. A fee, is just a hidden tax. So people voluntarily paying more for a license to provide a bounty on yotes...probably ain't happening.
I have been assured there are way more deer than yotes. As you can see no one offered any population estimates. The state used to estimate between 1.5 to 1.8 million. With that number and the slight year to year expected decrease, I guess I am wrong. I guess it's true, just because I ain't seeing em... don't mean they ain't there.

Ron, couple of things:

1) This is a hunter's association doing this, not the state. So they can do it easier than a state's DNR can. You and Cobbie could set up your own contest, or form a He-Man Yote Haters Club and put up the money and have it yourselves. Maybe lobby the Alabama Wildlife Federation to help you.

2) Pennsylvania tried 3-4 years ago through the legislature to set up a bounty and it didn't go through. Whether that was due to finances, pressure from antis, advice from the state DNR that it wouldn't be good or whatever, it didn't go through.

Yeah , I don't care if we put a bounty on em , poison em , hang em with treble hooks , have a redneck Yote huntin poker lottery, sucks for the average hunter to compete with the doe killer and the coyote . I know all places are not as bad , I look at the quality of hunting some of you have and it's 20 times better than what we have around here . we have a few deer but it's nothing like it should be .. Another thing is for someone who has hunted every year, the change is gradual you slowly notice the quality declining over time, and it may not dawn on you until its just not that enjoyable ., kinda like your ole lady slowly getting bigger and bigger over the years . I hunted 25 years ago as a kid no yotes around, deer abundant .. Skipped about 10 years of hunting,then hunted a few seasons in my early 20s, does being killed , yotes becoming common, 15 years later ,deer hunting not near as good , 2 does a day , yotes everywhere . I see the changes and we are not headed in the right direction, and I'm just looking into the future and trying to bring awareness to something that I think needs to be looked at. If 2000 people read this than maybe we are doing something .

I thought this place was created to discuss deer hunting. I'm on old fellow and got labeled as weird, by a fellow hunter name Trox. I've hunted all my life and don't know squat about him. I responded to the young fellow who was having a hard time harvesting his first deer and told him to try to get the wind his favor, but if he couldn't just hunt because the rut was probably in on his cousins twenty acres. You told the kid to give up to two weeks of hunting up and Trox gave him the same advice as you and threw something like don't listen to the new guy, he gave you lousy advice. I've been bowhunting 43 years and deer hunting 50. He most likely ain't been alive that long. Then I post this thread and he's the first responder, saing I'm weird. I attempt a discussion with him. I start off by discussing the history of the whitetail deer. Setting up the over harvest of does and was planning on following up with the creation of the predator pit theory. You have seen the responses. I get the feeling this Trox guy has a lot of friends here. This site may just be for good ole boys. Outsiders unwelcome.

Codie, trox is a good guy. There's a bunch if good guys on this site. Stick around and you'll make some good friends.

Some areas, yes. Some, no. I'm live in one area that has been hammered by coyotes. I have killed 3 since August and 3 more on another close by property. I have some other properties, not so much coyote vs. deer problem. I live in an area where there is a farmer who doesn't allow coyotes to be shot on his property. He claims they kill more deer than hunters ever will, 365 days, and they don't eat his crops. He does allow deer hunting but claims they can't touch what the coyotes do. I believe him.

Beadlescomb, I know where you are from. I could take you to a part of that county that you would not believe the deer numbers compared to when you were growing up. Hardly any deer.

I see deer several times a week,just going about my business.Rarely see coyote,but see them occasionally..I can go look at deer on any given evening if I want to.Cant say the same for the Coyote.

My coyotes move around, might hear them every night for a few weeks, then it might be months before I hear them again. I have two different tracts of land and this is true on both of them.

Why is it so hard for folks to understand the predator-prey relationship?

I assume this comment is directed at me. So I will respond and continue the discussion. Stating of the bat that I understand the predator/prey relationship very well. Earlier, I discussed the history of the whitetail deer. The purpose for the discussion was to demonstrate what can happen when said predator/prey relationship is thrown out whack by external forces, in this case man. Studies have shown that when the prey species in this case deer are over harvested, That a predator pit can be created. The studies show that when the population gets to a certain level, it becomes impossible for the prey species to ever recover even if hunting is stopped completely. The coyote can basically halt almost all fawn recruitment. The study was written in the AON magazine. It is currently located in a different thread. The thread is titled, interesting artical on populations (deer) declining. It's about five posts down, for those interested.

A whitetails average home range is around a square mile , average coyote home range 20 square miles . Of course home ranges can overlap and vary. How many fawns will a pair of coyotes kill in a fawning season ? . How many weeks will they key in on them .. Think about the traveling coyote and the variability of the Rut in places . That same hunting pair of yotes can cruise for 3 months sucking up fawns possibly longer.

I am no spring chicken and have lived in many different places.One of those place was Kansas..You want to see and here a lot of coyotes?Go there.Oh yeah,even with all of those predators,they also have an enviable deer herd and many species of game birds we only wish we had..Coyotes are not the problem.

Worst problem I know of with coyotes is trying to raise watermelons around them.

Hey Ron,

Do you know how to move the GON article, to this thread? I don't know how. Anybody else know how, willing to help. I would greatly appreciate it.

Chevy , from my understanding the coyotes we are starting to deal with here in the south are not the same 30 to 35 pound rodent eating coyotes in Kansas . All of the coyotes we have here have dog and wolf in there genes, studies have been done on this as well , it varies a lot in the amount of wolf, or dog in the gene pool from area to area . I personally would just like to see some promotion of some sort to trap and hunt them. Hunting them is fun I've killed a handful calling , but it can be challenging, especially if they have been called before and shot at .
Codie I'm computer illiterate myself but I will give it a shot .

Codie here is the article about the predator pit . If you want to get the whole picture you have to read the whole article. It's An interesting read and makes a lot of sense . This predator pit may not be at your property yet but it could be if you kill to many does and they move in .

http://www.aonmag.com/article.php?id=2452

I know that we have hashed this thing out for yrs..Biologists say you fawn survival rate is basically the same with or without them..I will go with this and my own personal experience and tell you that they are not the problem most people think they are.I don't care if you kill and trap all you can it wont make a difference.

That's what I tried to tell Ron. Somehow he roped me into helping him. I blame the State of Alabama, 100% for the current state of the herd. Man is the problem, we all need to look in our mirrors. At current population levels, the coyote is a contributing factor. As the population declines they become a bigger threat by creating the predator pit. I don't expect to see quality hunting again in my lifetime. It's getting hard to make myself go. I've killed plenty of deer in my lifetime. I've passed through all the hunter stages and have no desire to kill does, fawns and small bucks at this time. I refuse to take part in the slaughter, I'm bearing witness to. I love hunting big bucks though and love watching deer. I'm sure I'll go as long as I'm physically able..

Codie don't pay Tros any attention. He probably was in a bad mood due to fruit picking time is going to be delayed this year with all the rain we've had.

I'm sorry,and don't know where you hunt,but we are loaded with deer and in places that has never had them..I understand people are not seeing what they think they should but we have tons of deer.

I'm not sure what you guys are trying to say? However, if you think there's more coyotes in this state than deer, you are very wrong. Let's just make that real clear and move on. Don't think otherwise and let your imagination run wild.

Are coyotes eating deer? Sure.
Are they helping bullets cause lower populations than 20 years ago? Highly likely.

Two totally different discussions.

Great job Ron, I'm proud of you. Thanks

I have seen more robins or black birds in my backyard over the last 3 weeks than any other animal in the state.

What we trying to say is man has already killed to many deer in some places , coyotes are keeping those places at the level they are at with no chance of coming back unless predators are removed and doe killing stops . Something needs to change so that more areas don't end up in the same boat .. I think these issues have been discussed about three times a week on here since the beginning of the season , for those of you still enjoying great hunting, I'm happy for you . The hunting here is Mediocre at best .

You are wrong!

just out of curiosity, what does your hunting area contain percentage wise,

young cutover versus older pine plantation, hardwoods etc....

Carter its a lot of planted pine in various stages of growth ranging from being cut now , to all the way to mature thinned pines. there are a lot of mature hardwood bottoms with creek, it's rolling hills along the chatahochee river basin . I know what is going on around here , and comparing a pine plantation eastern coyote to a grasslands western coyote is not the same . There are people here on Aldeer that live within 10 to 20 miles of me that are not exsoeriencing what is going on here . They have coyotes but thet don't have problems to the extent we have here. Either they have not killed the does off to the point that the groups are not large enough to protect the fawns or there property's habitate has better cover, or the coyote is not ranging out very far around them and still eating rodents and rabbits , or a combination of all three. hard to say. Coyotes are hard animals to figure out .. I have read where home ranges of coyotes can vary anywhere from a couple of Sqaure miles to 50 square miles .. Now you tell me that's going to be the same animal when it comes to hunting habits .. I think the remoteness of the land you hunt plays a part.. It allows that coyote to range out and hunt fawns without making contact with humans therfore establishing larger overlapping home ranges . Don't confuse the timberland coyote to the city park coyote dumping over trash cans .. They are adaptable and can withstand different anounts of human pressure just like a suburban deer. I know in large land masses where deer populations are low , coyotes are hurting the numbers. I know Alabama will probably never do anything about them, or change regs . hopefully they wil on WMA's and national forest so the poor working man who can't afford to lease land , or join a club can enjoy to hunt . A southern man that never learned or had an oppurtubity to hunt, has not had his balls drop yet .. Man was Born to hunt . Should do all we can to make it enjoyable for our kids . I don't see killing two does a day across the state very conservative , if it was a conservative republicans who made that decision to change regs , he should be held down and pissed on by big ears himself.

Don't think so!!

Well explain it for me then!

Or better yet let's just agree to disagree. I know what I had in game animals, what I've done with habitat improvements and predator control and I KNOW I have more game animals now. That's good enough for me!

Works for me.

That's your opinion, Let's see some off your population estimates. What is your departments' estimate on Black Warrior WMA and The Bankhead National Forest. How many have been harvested on the WMA this year.
Here's a challenge, post all the deer kills from now to Febuary 11th.
Put the one Lucy tracked there. That's a real nice photo, congrats on a fine buck.