I have a simple question

There is a lot of debate ongoing concerning deer numbers. It honestly baffles me to see some of the statements! So, my question is:

Do most of you understand the Concept of antlerless harvest?

It IS to lower the population!

No more, no less.
Simply curtailing buck harvest will have SAME effect on buck:doe ratio as killing does. So, save that argument. It is to reduce overall numbers and it works very well.

Works too Damn good if you ask me.....

The doe harvest has not adjusted to account for the radically reduced Fawn Recruitment Rates due to predation.

Coyotes, bobcats, bears, etc numbers are all on the rise. Their harvest is either protected or virtually non-existent due to fall of the fur/trapping market.

Fewer does raising fewer fawns is a bad thing....

And, I gotta add......doe harvest seems to favor trying to see who can kill the biggest does. That leaves the young ones. A yearling doe with no matriarch is NOT a good mother and her fawn survival rate will not equal what an older aged does would.

Could you call the expert over Skyline and tell him this.It seems that his goal is to wipe every deer off the place making every gun hunt either sex.There is no telling how many does end up being button bucks.

I know one thing, I have seen more fawns this year than ever in my areas.

I am with you on this 1000%. My take on it is the coyotes IN CERTAIN AREAS have really put a hurting on deer pops. As far as the adjusting doe harvest, it's coming. DCNR will research it to get facts. This takes time...years of data for a trend either up or down. Too slow for most of us who want instant results. I have 2 properties that the doe harvest needs to be stopped all together. We don't shoot does here at all and encourage others to not to also. Then I have 1 property where there doe harvest is OK where it is. All 3 properties are in the same county. Trying to throw a blanket over the whole state is what DCNR is facing. The only solution is hunter education which the state seems to count on by letting the people manage it themselves. But how do you educate hunters in masses??

Now break it down. What changed? A newer cutover providing better cover for fawns? Better food causing does to be healthier? Just a freakly good year? Think it through and see if there something that you can do/continue to do to help.

The hunter is the final judge on his or her property. Each individual like their property is unique. Rules and regs are blanketed to keep some control. It is left to the hunter to decide. Some will blast away and some will not. Deer hunting will never be perfect.

One is a new property and the other has seen no change.

You either have excellent fawning cover right now, or there is some serious predator control going on around you. It's not by chance you're seeing more fawns this year.

The coyotes are there.

We have had increasingly less fawns year after year. Oh, we have plenty on camera with spots with their mama's. Sometimes multiples, then they disappear. We never get pics, see them while hunting. So where do they go? I have a pretty good idea. If we are losing that many deer to the predators then we must stop killing the does. Like I said in an earlier post, we have killed no does in 3 years and "some" neighbors longer than that.
Someone needs to start educating the Hunting population on what is going on with the deer herd. And what we can do to help it. And that certainly does not mean year long either sex season to satisfy the lobbyists and big money insurance companies. Its time.

It could be a one year freak thing. But if it continues, something is favoring fawn survival. Jared should know his land better than anyone and know what he's talking about, so it could be something the neighbors have done.

On the new property I think it would be the fact that no one does anything until gun season. I didn't see any one until mid October on the dirt road. No tracks either. No pressure for 9 months may be the reason. Time will tell on this place.

How long have we had an open doe season?

As far as educating the hunters the hunter should educate himself.

Really, they do what they are told. You tell a kid he can shoot one a day and thats what he will do. Until they are gone. Kinda like putting catfish in a swimming pool and having a fishing rodeo. It must start with the rules and regulations.

Gotta add to that also is the fact that over the course of her life a young doe will eat more food (resources) than an old doe and produce more offspring, which in turn consume resources, than an old doe. We were taught that if your goal is population reduction, which ours was for years, it is much better to shoot a young doe than an old doe.

A yote will take a fawn a day if given the opportunity, and they are efficient killers. It's not by chance or a freak thing that he is seeing more fawns. Either he has optimal fawning cover, or someone or thing has put a dent in the predators. The only other thing it might be is he has better food sources than the surrounding property owner, so he is drawing more deer to his place. I'm just happy someone on here is having an increase in fawn sightings

Where does the "You need to kill X number of does for every 100 acres" come from??? If you're supporting the killing or need of killing does... let me ask you this question: BASED ON WHAT DATA for "YOUR" property?

Stop killing for the sake of killing when you don't know how many or IF you need to reduce your deer pop!

And, stop blaming the QDM or QDMA on excessive killing of does. Deer mgmt states to kill does ONLY if you need to!

Deer carrying cap changes based on timber practices, predation, etc... it's a moving target but make logical decisions based on what's best for your deer herd and not your desires. Get educated on deer weights, milk present in does and if no milk, could it be reasons of predation or too many does or... NOT ENOUGH bucks? Are you killing too many immature bucks? Spend some time attempting to educate yourself about deer mgmt and not what you hear at the coffee shop!

If you tell your kid he can shoot one a day then that is your problem. The law doesn't state that you have to shoot a deer a day. That is the limit. You as an experienced hunter should guide the younger hunter in the direction that is best for your situation. Other species have limits as well but most hunters don't fill there bag every day. It all starts with you. If your not seeing deer you should probably change location or your habitat.

Y'all just need to hunt better areas. Either that or I've just become accustomed to mediocrity(averaging 2-3 per hunt, sometimes 12-15). I mainly hunt 3 counties Bibb, Lee, and Macon. I see does and fawns nearly every hunt, and rarely see bucks. Prob 30 does/fawns for every 1 buck seen. I would prefer to see antler restrictions, or a reduction in bucks tags. I honestly don't think deer numbers are low. I think some areas the people are unable to manage themselves

I grew up with a dad who was born in 1923 and he grew up in South AL. There wasn't a huntable deer population for much of his life and he preached NOT shooting any does and if you killed a doe, you were a very bad person. For MANY years, that was true but what stuck with me about my dad was the fact that he did what was best for the deer herd and he instilled a conservationist mindset in me.

Obviously, that deer mgmt style had to be tweaked when deer numbers soared but the bottom line is to get educated and do what's best for the deer herd.

jibuc10, I see bucks on A LOT of my hunts but I hunt a large area where hunters don't shoot bucks under 3 yrs of age. My club targets 4 yr old bucks but the surrounding land has some pretty good buck mins with TEETH in their rules against adult hunters shooting young bucks.

Hunters' greed, a lack of self-discipline and restraint, dishonesty, etc... will really hurt your buck pops. Ethicality in hunting club members is just as important as the rules themselves. I am happy with my hunting club... with our doe and buck numbers and with my opportunity to shoot mature bucks and my son has already shot a 125" ten pt this year! And really, that's my joy. AND, my son understands restraint, discipline and the joy of watching immature bucks. He also understands deer mgmt and harvest (killing!) decisions are based on what's best for the herd and not HIS desires to burn powder.

JL, you've got a buddy that has a few deer. But don't shoot any little ones! We have a special hanging tree, that's not for deer.

You're right.

2 things:

1. I asked recently how much of the state was overpopulated, i.e. "needs" does killed. The unanimous answer was almost 0%.

2. I still value freedom over onerous regulation, because once we give up something, we will likely never see that freedom back again.

On our land, we don't shoot does, because we like seeing deer.

A lot of Yall on here kill me with your thinking on this subject .. Most hunters don't have a clue when it comes to land managment. They must be told what to do . We must have rules and regulations and its the states job to protect the natural resources . I sure do hope that the politicians who make the final decisions on will do more to preserve wildlife populations. If more money is needed for better studies by raising liscense fees or maybe we should look into setting up a fund for timber lands to tap into to promote burning. All the money hunters spend on deer piss, and cover scent and other gimics could be put to a lot better use.

It's amazing how tough it is this day and age to ask the hunter to educate himself and show some restraint. The rules and regulations are there for safety and guidelines for the overall health of the deer herd. Sure there has to be some rules in place as a baseline, but I hate to see it when some people think that more government mandates are going to fix there problem and they will start shooting more trophy deer if the government will just make more rules. It's not going to happen. If you want to see more deer then lay off of the trigger, lower the pressure, and probably most importantly improve your habitat! If your kid is shooting one a day then don't complain you aren't seeing enough deer because that is the expected end result with that behavior. Also, you can't mandate for the law breakers because they are going to break the law anyway. I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules and some government restrictions, but don't think that's going to fix all of these same problems I here people complaining about on here every day.

Do you feel the same way about gun rights? Hunting is also a (state) constitutional right. Not a privilege.

We have to have rules and regulations, but some folks think that if we keep asking for more laws then we will all see 20+ deer each hunt and shoot a whole lot more trophys. I'm fine with lowering the doe numbers. We are overrun with does because we don't shoot enough. It's just a decision we made that we want to see more deer and realize the trade off. More fees makes me nervous because historically the government will waste the money and get used to receiving it and then not want to give it up. One thing you mentioned about a fund for timberland got me thinking. The forever wild program could use some of the oil/gas royalies to divvy up burning and trapping predators by county instead of buying more land. That could work but it is still going to have minimal impact across the whole state. I think people need to have realistic expectations for Alabama hunting,

Sorry, but that does not hold water.....they do NOT stay young......unless there is a Fountain of Youth somewhere on the property???

If she can out smart you imagine what she can do to predators when she has twins. Got to give her plenty to eat and shoot the predators! You got it right Hogwild!

Killing does without ANY FACTUAL data results in decimation of the deer herd. Parts of Marshall County are prime examples of this stupidity.

Some of you folks act like putting a harvest restriction, is like adding another branch of gov .

Land managment and gun rights are not even remotely close .. That's like comparing evolution to culling bucks .

Government wont help. Burning public land wont help anything other than the public land. Timber companies burn their land but that will leave a sterol forest with nothing but pine. The sterol argument is there from conservationist. In the end it is left to the individual hunter to decide what and how many to harvest. If the doe is taken for food then I have no problem with that. If said hunter's heard is to large in his opinion then let him make the decision to blast some does. I know a few people that need to do this but will not.

Believe me when I say this. I am not a proponent of the propaganda of if you kill more does you will kill bigger bucks, I have personally never seen it come to fruition. But there has to be a number of does that you can kill each year without actually reducing the size of the heard. There are going to be a certain number of does recruited into the herd each year. If that year less than number die for whatever reason the size of the herd will not be reduced. There won't be as many as there would have been if none died but there is a number that can die each year without a heard reduction. The problem is figuring out how many are being recruited each year, and figuring out from that number how many you can shoot without causing a reduction if you don't want one. If you want an increase maybe you shouldn't shoot any. You also here a lot of people say if you kill a doe you took out 3 deer for next year. That is bull crap I would be willing to bet there is no where in AL that the recruitment rate is 2 fawns for every adult doe. There in part lies the problem a lot of people think every doe is gonna raise 2 fawns next year so you have to kill a bunch to keep population down. When in actuality from the studies I have read if your recruitment rate is .75-1 per adult doe you are doing great. While average is probabbly in the .50-.75 range and some places with a large predator problem may be in the .25-.50 range or lower. I think there are a lot of people that understand recruitment rates. If you are on the low side of those recruitment rates you can not kill very many does or your population will go down and go down in a hurry. And may go down enough to where your recruitment rate falls to near 0 then you have the problem of your herd not being able to recover even if you shoot no does. Just my .02.

What I don't understand is where in the world do all of those 1.5 - 3-5 year old bucks go that we let walk every year. Maybe just become so nocturnal you never see them except during the rut is only conclusion I can come up with.

I've said before, there are no regulations in Alabama, other than the 3 buck rule. Nobody can complain about regulations, and government, because we basically don't have any rules. It's near impossible to manage land unless you own a big chunk and don't have to share the costs with 30 other people that just like killing stuff, and most southern hunters like to kill stuff.
Habitat is also out the window, for I would say 99.9 percent of Alabama hunters, because you can't just tell the paper company, '' hey, I want to control burn half of my 4000 acres and build some bigger food plots ''. They'll tell you to find somewhere else to hunt.
The only way to really increase deer number is to significantly reduce the doe harvest to what it used to be, and control predators. That's the only 2 options for most normal hunters. They could shorten the season, but even I wouldn't want that working a full time job with a family.

I can see where someone who is managing there own land correctly, would be opposed to regulations , but what are you suppose to do when you have a large land area with multiple small Tracts? how do you solve this problem?

We have plenty of regulation in Alabama. It is harder if you don't own a big chunk of land, but that's just like anything else. If you rent a place you don't get as much say, but you also pay significantly less than owning. Reducing doe harvest and controlling predators would be a great place to start and seems to be necessary in most locations.

After reading numerous posts from you guys I feel like we are all on the same page. It is relieving to know that alot of you feel the same way I do about the current situation. Sure would be nice if we could get something done.

Have your neighbors over for dinner and talk about forming a cooperative group that agrees to the same harvest principles/guidelines. This will put a larger land mass under management. Do improve the habitat on your small tracts though, it will help and you will see more deer and wildlife as a result.

Attempting this now and will try Trapping yotes on as much land as I can get permission on after deer season .. But most people don't have the time to put into trapping to make an Inpact, especially on there leased land . Just wait years down the Road .. Predators will be out of control in most places then It's going to require more governent than it will now to do simething about it .

If the heard is considerably smaller in the future would the predators not loose numbers as well?

That assumption is based on the Concept that deer is the ONLY food source for coyotes and does not account for hunter caused deaths in the deer herd.

In other words.....they do not eat deer exclusively.....they just really like em!

We don't need anymore regulations because half the folks aren't gonna abide by the rules anyway. We cannot count on game laws to regulate deer numbers we have to take matters into our own hands. Meaning just because you can shoot a doe a day doesn't mean you need to. What happened to just watching deer and being happy with just having the encounter with a bunch of deer and not shooting one because you liked seeing them? And waiting on a racked buck instead of just shooting something. I could have easily already killed 10 deer this season but I have not fired a shot or clicked my safety off. I don't shoot everything I see and dont really like hunting around people who do.my point being we are the ones that have brought the heard where it is today and if you don't like it practice trigger restraint.

More deer would create more food for the coyote. More food does create a larger and healthier pack of coyote. Same for the deer.

Most hunters don't share that passion that we have for the sport or wildlife in general . That's why we need regulations . If that means a couple more guys running Around in green shorts . Then so be it . I don't like regulations either , but this is not the sparsely populated Wild West anymore . Hunting is a republican sport, and it would be sad to see us decimate it in a lot of areas because we are afraid of any type of regulation. That's like not letting the gov. Control those companies making the secret apps that terrorist are using .. Personally I see no problem with that .. Smart regulations and minimal regulations is what's needed . Everything about democrats is not all bad just most things .

If you eat what you shoot I have no problem.

By that reasoning, less deer would also create more rabbits and more available mast. So, more coyote food.

More rabbits would create more dog hunters. Less deer equal less fawns and leftovers from kills. Less easy meals. Rabbits would likely not be an easy target there fore sliming the pack to the hardiest of the animals. Which would also equal fewer pups being born. Less to feed.

I honestly dont understand some peoples logic.

Maybe because it is not logical?

Why is it not logical?

Too many assumptiions.

Yep.

Could be.

When did coyotes start showing up in large numbers?

I heard the 1st ones I ever heard in AL when I was 12 yrs old in Putnam, AL one night while coon hunting. That would have been in 1979. By the mid-80's, they were more distributed across our area. By the mid 90's, they had become common. By the mid 2000's, they were a nuisance. And now, they are plague like!

Hog, you could not be more correct. A damn disease you cant get rid of.

Coincide with deer population growth maybe?

What do you mean by this ?

well, that one - no one would be definitive on. too many variables. that can't explain all the coyote running around in daphne! they are eating garbage, produce from the fields and folk's cats and puppy dogs.

i know how many coyote we (our hunting club members) have trapped on our little bitty piece of leased land. it ain't good, and by the sign (prints, scat and sounding off to pack up) we got a bunch to contend with.

if you're a large land owner or lessee, you may be surprised by the number of coyote on said premise.

my $.02 and i'm still tallying the yotes as we get 'em.

I think you are on to something! And now the DCNR can't figure out how to get out of it! Going from kill 1 buck per day with a few doe days to blast 2 does per day the entire season to offset the 3 buck limit! It's somewhat laughable that they worked their way right into a catch 22 with all of the TV big buck quality deer mismanagement clamour from billybob the mighty hunter groups! The answer I am sure will be more regulations and stupidity, those things that government bureaucracy is good at! Trudge on men we have a problem to create, so we can create a solution!!

Exactly!

I have a LOT of Biologist buddies. Heck, I even went to college for a while myself at AU with some of them as I thought that it was a field that I, myself, would enjoy. So, I am absolutely certain that this situation with a greatly reduced deer population in areas along with a dwindling herd in others was created by people with the very best of intentions. And, honestly, with the information that they had at the time, the change was needed in areas. However, hunters have become accustomed to the fact that they can kill a deer or two a day if they see them. They do not want that privilege taken away.
And, you are correct......even though the internet is full of deer management gurus......it will take Regulations, harvest regs or season changes to curtail the antlerless harvest in critical areas. Because the propaganda worked. People have convinced themselves that they are doing the 'right' thing.

More regukations and governent outreach .. I didn't think your going to have to worry about to many regulations in akabama from what I'm seeing .. But just a few would be smart .