Buck Dispersion

We've had our place going on its 5th year. EVERY year we have a pile of 2-3 year old bucks. Always. Without question. However, we rarely see or get pictures of bucks that are 4,5,6 years old. We aren't shooting them, neighbors aren't shooting them...they literally just disappear. Poof, gone. We have a cooperative of 4 landowners totaling about 1200 acres. In 5 years, we have taken roughly 20 bucks. Of those 20, I would say 2 were 2.5, 8 were 3.5 and 10 were 4.5+. I would say, conservatively, we hold one buck/15 acres, or roughly 100 bucks on the 1200 total. Of those, I would say that less than 10% are 4.5 or older. My question, if we are able to hold such a number of 3.5 and younger deer, where are the mature bucks going? Will they not tolerate all of the younger deer and their shenanigans? Would killing some of the younger bucks actually help our ability to hold and harvest mature deer? Just looking for opinions.

Dang good question. I've seen the same on some properties. Can't even get an older buck on camera. I also have seen bucks come into foodplots at 1, 2, and 3 yo's. But sometime between over the summer between 3 and 4 they decide they will never go into that foodplot again during daylight. Then I have another property that EVERY year I will have at least 1 (usually more) 4+ yo stroll out there in broad daylight. This property if you haven't seen the deer you looking for by the time sun sets, go home. No more come out at dusk. Also, come Jan. 1 the season is basically over for mature deer. And this should just be starting primetime in this area. The summer time bucks are different than the winter bucks also.

I have almost 0 range shifting. I run a bunch of cameras.

Now bucks simply vanishing in summer months with old mature bucks is common. Guess they die

I would be willing to bet that more bucks die each year due to fighting related injuries or rigors of the rut than what people realize. I was looking at a buck skull the other day from one I killed and noticed a place on his skull between his antlers that looked like a puncture wound. It looked like it had fractured his skull in that little spot but didn't go all the way through to his brain....eventually healing up. Not all bucks are that lucky though. If they get a severe enough wound to the top of the skull it can cause eventual death due to infection so close to the brain. That's what I've heard anyways. Maybe one of the biologists could verify that.

I suspect they're still there just nocturnal. I had a big 8 pointer that was easily 5.5 years or older. I got him on camera twice before bow season opened. That was it though. I got him on camera again in February after the season went out in the same area as before season. I can't help but believe that the cameras spooked him. We're running cameras this year but not checking them as much as we did last season. We also changed out planting routine this year. In the past we've sprayed the fields then came back with disc and planted. This year we deep plowed them, disced to powder then planted. Hoping for better results.

Some disperse, some become nocturnal, some become camera shy, natural and unnatural mortality. I'll still bet $ there are more there than you think. At 4 they're getting pretty slick.

Just re-read your post, you say 50% were 4.5 or older , sounds like you're killing some of them. 50% of bucks killed over a few years time 4.5 and older sounds pretty good to me.

I think you don't have as big of a problem as you think you do.

I agree with 2Dogs to an extent...

It is different from place to place and from time of year to time of year.

We hold a ton of mature bucks during the spring and summer months but during the winter they typically range off the property. Just a difference in summer and winter home ranges.

Mature bucks also demand the best range. I've seen deer up and leave moderate habitat on a well managed place and move 2.5-3 miles and set up shop as a 4 year old. He moved to prime habitat on the same property.

If you aren't seeing them you likely have more than you think...but there may be something missing too. May be worth an in-depth look.

...and from deer to deer. Dayum thangs are worse than women. I feel if you can get 50% of a herd reacting the same you are doing dang good. The other 50% is still going to be all over the board. Such as the way a herd reacts to a front coming through. Or the moon. Or heavy wind. Dispersion should be the same with variability.

With age comes wisdom.

Very true! Some are home bodies some aren't. Some are extremely territorial/aggressive and some are very passive.

Fickle critters.

It's been said before, but cameras can by the best and worst thing that ever happened to modern day hunters. I remember BSK telling me that he watched mature bucks walk off the trail to make a point to avoid a trail camera, and then get back on the trail after they passed the camera. Not saying every or even most mature bucks avoid cameras, but no doubt some do. Just cause your not getting pics doesn't mean they aren't there…this is something I have to remind myself as well.

That being said, assuming they aren't dead, you should expect to be able to follow some of your bucks from 3 to 4 to 5. From my experience, if I have 10 3.5 year olds, I might have 4 or 5 at 4 and maybe 1 or 2 at 5. We have well over 5,000 acres of contiguous land (owned by several landowners) that is well managed and a lot of these bucks never die of a bullet or car. Go figure.

Also, with 1200 acres it's very possible some of your bucks are going to another property off of the 1200 acres.

What 2dogs and NH said, and truedouble too.

Natural mortality kills more mature bucks than most realize. They also just decide to move sometimes, and don't come back, even when all their needs are met. On 1200 acres I can guarantee you more bucks are getting killed off your property than you'd ever care to know. Most mature bucks will wonder from your 1200 at some time in the season, some of them miles.

Thanks guys. All great info and I appreciate each of the opinions expressed thus far. Will mature deer seek solitude away from other bucks once the hormones get going and bachelor groups start busting up? Would any of you suggest trying to target inferior 3 year olds to make it more hospitable for mature deer?

Nooooo don't do that. Mature bucks travel, and can travel a long way throughout the season. They can travel a mile and a half per day during the rut. Keep your doe numbers down on your land and the land next to your to keep those bucks on their feet looking come the rut.

Also, what kind of offseason nutrition are you doing?

I killed my biggest buck back in Jan. 2014. This buck was estimated at a minimum of 5 1/2 years old. Had one guy say 7+. Anyway, our biologist has a lot of cameras out all over the place, and he told me he had NEVER seen my buck before. Never. My thought at that time was "If he's never seen this buck before, how many more are out there that have never stepped in front a camera?"

3F, with the situation you described, I'd guess they are still there for the most part. Like others have said, the deer just know how to avoid the cameras, etc. Might be interesting if you set up a camera watching a camera you've had out for a while that the deer may already know of. Those old bucks get old for a reason.

Move your cameras to about 6-7 ft up in the tree and angle them down.

Are you doing spring/summer plots?

I feel you on this problem. We seem to have much of the same problem that you have. We get pics of bucks up until 4 and then most just disappear (on camera anyways). Its been this way for years. Just very hard to get a mature buck on camera. I've come up with some personal opinions but thats about all they are:) The main issue I believe is habitat and pressure with terrain or geography coming in to play also. If you don't have a thick or remote place that they can stay without being pressured I just don't think most mature bucks will make that place home even if they did at a younger age. For example on the 400-500 acres we hunt it is mostly mountain land with bigger hardwoods. While I do think that some of the thicker steeper places we have that don't get pressure will hold bucks the majority of the property isn't that way. I just don't think mature bucks normally hang out in big wide open places. It also doesn't help that there is 1000 acres next to us with thicker better bedding areas that only gets hunted maybe a hand full of times all year. Last week I ran into a guy that owns around 80 acres that borders us and was telling him about not getting any buck pics this summer and he pulls out his phone and starts showing me several he has gotten so far. One was a nice tall 8pt that I had got pics of year before last that just disappeared (like normal). He was probably 2 1/2-3 1/2 then and looked 4-5 now. The difference is that about 60 acres of what they own was logged several years ago and is very thick and joins a couple smaller 40-80 acre tracts that I don't think the land owners hunt. The location makes it even better for him. He is located to the southwest of us and we come in normally from the northeast. So when we come in we would many times be pushing them that way already. While we were talking about it he showed me a pic of a very nice buck that one of his buddies was getting in a club in TN. He said there was 20 acres not far from the clubhouse that no one ever goes on and he just threw his camera out and was getting that buck in the daylight every day. He was staying where there was n pressure. I know a guy that has killed several good public land deer. At one time he was able to spend most of the season in the woods and just a really good hunter. He had showed me some trail cam pics and had probably 5 deer that would go 140+ all in the same general area. All of them were just bruiser mature bucks. To say the least these weren't in big hardwood areas where there was much pressure. I think the small home range in the summer time makes it harder to find bucks anyways, so if you don't have prime bedding areas with low pressure the chance of seeing mature bucks consistently on camera is just going to be very low. Then the fact that mature bucks seem to avoid cameras anyways makes it that much harder. I agree with you and feel your pain and know how discouraging it can be especially because for me getting pics and running cameras and seeing the different bucks year to year is one of my favorite parts of hunting. I've just come to the conclusion that I know there are mature bucks out there and once the rut comes in to just hunt because even if we don't have many mature bucks that call it home they're moving enough then you never know what you may get.

They are individuals.....and, they move a long way at times.....several miles in fact. And, there does not have to be a 'reason'. Also, their personality has a lot to do with it. Some bucks are aggressive and bully all the others. Some are very submissive and will avoid interaction with other bucks. Then, you take the fact the Social Structure is being constantly disrupted as bucks are taken out of the herd during hunting season....and couple that with the Rut happening at the end of a long hunting season......and, the result is a virtual 'musical chairs' of bucks moving around!!!! The Social Structure is so dynamic, with so many variables, that there is no clear answer to why, how or when bucks will 'move'.

BUT, I can assure you this, they DO move!

Also, I also know for a fact that you can 'recruit' new mature bucks onto our property. They cannot be stockpiled on one property!
Habitat management, Supplemental feeding and low pressure with Sanctuary Areas (yes, I will regret that with the current flurry of Sanctuary jokes ) that provide bucks with a secure environment attracts bucks from other properties where they are being 'suppressed' in the Social Structure.
Some properties are just better than others for no obvious reason. It seems like every year that there are numerous mature bucks taken off of them.....with virtually no end. And, oddly enough, these properties are sometimes hunted hard and not managed well. Really makes NO sense! But, the reason is usually social structure of the herd and nearby properties that are 'raising' bucks that are dispersing in and taking the place of bucks that have been killed.

Yep, a good situation for a guy is to have property next to or very near a large landowner or cooperative of landowners that are under strict trophy management with their deer.

Did you come up with 100 bucks on 1200 acres estimate by doing a camera survey or is it a guess? Not disputing your numbers, that just seems awfully high. If you had a buck to doe ratio of 1:2, that would be 300 deer on 1200 acres - 150 deer per sq mile.

Mississippi or Alabama?? Either way one buck per 15 acres is a lot of deer after you throw in the doe numbers but some places can sustain it but most can't.

Camera surveys and deer sightings over the past 5 years. We are very blessed to have a high deer density with good, quality habitat and neighbors that don't shoot a lot of deer. This past weekend there were 3 of us (myself and 2 neighbors) that were bowhunting within a 100 acre block. We saw 45 deer between the three of us including 11 bucks. Some of those were likely the same deer but I would guess the large majority were not.

What's your offseason nutrition routine?

You have much to learn grasshopper...

What do you think this fellar is doing

Flooding.

In all seriousness, most springs we are under water. When we aren't, clover from the fall plots will take us through June. We also feed protein, although not like we should. Have tried beans/peas before when the water allowed but it's just too much of a headache knowing you could lose it all in no time with a high river.

Dang right wish I could afford to fence our place. That would solve a bunch of problems. It would be awesome to say the neighbor won't shoot that 115" 3 yr old 8 pt.

Hmmm... that's interesting. I'm wondering if they won't establish semi-permanent residence due to being pushed out every Spring. In my opinion, if you could do a better off season nutrition with mineral spots etc, they would stay around better.

Aahhhh......so true!

Since it's been brought up someone define "stock piling bucks", and tell us why it can't be done.

Here is one quick article:

Click

But, there are plenty more available. I just did not have the time, nor compulsion, to do a big search, copy and paste.

I think I know where you are headed. Have the best food, cover, and least pressure and you will have the bucks?? Now, is that stock piling?? Works for me.

Am I that predictable?

I've seen a couple of definitions and though by those definitions, yes you can to some degree.

You can attract bucks and fill voids. But, you can let them ALL walk.....and not see an appreciable difference due to dispersal.

Interesting quote from the article

Don't buy it. Never say never. Until a large property reaches the saturation point, call it what you will, sounds like stock piling to me.

I've seen certain properties that were slammed with bucks, year to year. Not huge tracks either…500 acres or so. These properties had good cover (but no different than other property around) and about the same pressure as adjoining properties. I'm sure it had something different, but I couldn't see it. This would go against mature bucks wanting their elbow room. Not saying they don't but I don't think their desire for solitude is as strong as their desire to be on property with good cover, food and low pressure. Beyond that having the "right" property is all luck IMO. Some places have it and some just kind of have it and some don't have it, even with all the effort in the world.

So what I've gained from this thread...

1)You can have too many deer
2)You can't have too many deer
3)Bucks like solitude
4)Bucks like socializing
5)You can stockpile bucks
6)You can't stockpile bucks

And the most accurate statement of all...it's all about luck.

Trying to figure deer out is harder than trying to figure out women!

A deer's home range shrinks in size considerably as he gets older too. I know I don't run a camera per 100 acres on my place. I've thought lots of times that I'm missing deer.

that has been my sentiment since hunting the 5000 acre club. Mature bucks were killed in the same areas over and over thru the years. Also might be several mature bucks killed in the same general area the same year.

I know does run their bucks off. I get the same bucks on camera year after year. I think new ones move in when younger bucks move. 1000 acres ougth do it.

There's about three areas I can hunt each year no more than 30 acres total on about a thousand and kill bucks every season. Some places just produce.

Ditto. One of my favs is called the Pet Cemetery , go figure. My son and I have killed a bunch of full grown uns there.