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How Many Deer Have You Killed? #355797
06/24/12 04:39 PM
06/24/12 04:39 PM
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Shuter II Offline OP
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by improperly feeding?


Other Names: Grain overload, corn toxicity, lactic acidosis, carbohydrate
engorgement
Cause
Rumen acidosis occurs when wild or domestic ruminants (deer, elk, moose, cattle,
sheep etc.) ingest large quantities of readily digestible and highly fermentable
carbohydrates, usually grain. Corn, wheat, and barley are most commonly responsible
for rumen acidosis, while apples, grapes, bread, and sugar beets are less commonly
involved.
Significance
This disease occurs in wild deer, elk, and moose when they suddenly gain access to a
source of grain. Rumen acidosis can result in sporadic rapid deaths, but does not
currently have a significant impact on wild ruminant populations. However, in restored
or endangered populations it can be a serious source of mortality. In addition, its affect
may be underestimated because of the inability to quantify those who survive and yet
have shortened life spans because of the effects of this disease.
Species Affected
Rumen acidosis can occur in any ruminant. This disease is commonly observed in deer,
elk, moose, and domestic cattle. Bison seem less susceptible, but can still suffer from
grain overload.
Distribution
This disease can occur anywhere in the world when wild or domestic ruminants are
suddenly introduced to large quantities of carbohydrates.
Transmission/Disease Development
The natural diet of deer and elk changes with the season and available foodstuffs but is
generally high in fiber and low in carbohydrates. A sudden change in diet to high
carbohydrate and low fiber disrupts the normal microflora (bacteria, protozoa, and
fungi) in the rumen that is necessary for digestion. Carbohydrate digesting bacteria,
which are normally present at lower densities, overwhelm the other flora and produce
Pennsylvania Game Commission Wildlife Disease Reference Library
Rumen Acidosis
large amounts of lactic acid. This reduces the rumen pH to 5 or lower, which is too
acidic for most of the normal rumen microflora. The acidification also reduces rumen
motility so ingesta become trapped in the rumen. Fluid also moves into the rumen and
becomes trapped, resulting in dehydration of the animal. The lactic acid is absorbed
into the bloodstream and rises to potentially fatal levels; the acid also erodes the lining
of the rumen causing inflammation and ulceration of the parts of the rumen wall that is
responsible for absorbing nutrients.
The severity of rumen acidosis depends on many
factors including the type and amount of grain
consumed and whether or not the animal had
recently ingested that type of grain. When a toxic
amount of grain is consumed, the rumen flora
population will die within 2 to 6 hours.
Clinical Signs
Within 24 to 48 hours of ingesting large quantities of
carbohydrates, the animal will stop eating and may
be staggering, unable to rise, or standing quietly.
Affected animals often have an enlarged rumen,
diarrhea, and a normal temperature. The most
severely affected will die within 24 to 72 hours.
Since death is sudden, animals are usually in good
body condition. At necropsy, the rumen is often full
of corn or other grain, and their may be dark red
erosions in the lining of the abomasum.
Diagnosis
Rumen acidosis can usually be diagnosed when ruminants in good body condition are
found dead with large quantities of grain in their stomachs. Laboratory analysis of the
rumen microflora can be used to support the diagnosis. The pH begins to rise after
death and normal values at necropst do not rule out the disease.
Treatment
There is no treatment for rumen acidosis in wild ruminants because they are typically
found dead. Likewise there is no treatment for those who escape death but have
permanently damaged rumen lining.
Management/Prevention
Supplemental feeding of wild ruminants is often the cause of rumen acidosis;
restrictions on supplemental feeding may help prevent the occurrence of this disease.
In Pennsylvania, the Game Commission prohibits feeding of elk and feeding of deer is
strongly discouraged.
Suggested Reading
Grain Overload. 2011. The Merck Veterinary Manual. <http://
www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/21703.htm&word=grain%
2coverload>.

Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #355812
06/24/12 05:16 PM
06/24/12 05:16 PM
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That must be wrong. Pouring out a bag of corn is just as good as planting a food plot! I read it on aldeer. wink


If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #355832
06/24/12 05:46 PM
06/24/12 05:46 PM
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alabama
BhamFred Online mad
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if pouring out corn would kill deer then Texas would be a barren wasteland for deer hunting....


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: BhamFred] #355841
06/24/12 05:58 PM
06/24/12 05:58 PM
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Boxes Cove
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Originally Posted By: BhamFred
if pouring out corn would kill deer then Texas would be a barren wasteland for deer hunting....


.......and parts of Alabama! shocked



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: BhamFred] #355863
06/24/12 06:35 PM
06/24/12 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: BhamFred
if pouring out corn would kill deer then Texas would be a barren wasteland for deer hunting....


People that feed deer have better sense than to pour out corn free choice.

Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #355883
06/24/12 06:59 PM
06/24/12 06:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,092
alabama
BhamFred Online mad
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Originally Posted By: Shuter II
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
if pouring out corn would kill deer then Texas would be a barren wasteland for deer hunting....


People that feed deer have better sense than to pour out corn free choice.



no they don't.....


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #355885
06/24/12 07:01 PM
06/24/12 07:01 PM
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Posts: 36,092
alabama
BhamFred Online mad
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Shuter, in the past I've gotten fawns from folks that fed em EVERYTHING you can imagine from pop tarts to coco puffs to cream of wheat(dry/straight) and orange drink(no milk) and then when they get sick(imagine that)after two weeks they call someone to watch em die.....


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: BhamFred] #355888
06/24/12 07:11 PM
06/24/12 07:11 PM
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Shuter II Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: BhamFred
Originally Posted By: Shuter II
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
if pouring out corn would kill deer then Texas would be a barren wasteland for deer hunting....


People that feed deer have better sense than to pour out corn free choice.



no they don't.....


Allow me to rephrase that. People who make their living, or a portion of, from deer hunting feed deer a somewhat balanced ration. They don't just pour out corn free choice. Frothy bloat is a horrible way to die.

Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #355944
06/24/12 08:20 PM
06/24/12 08:20 PM
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alabama
BhamFred Online mad
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you would be correct on both counts....


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #356010
06/24/12 10:01 PM
06/24/12 10:01 PM
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Elmore County
Frankie Online content
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i don't know but i did help a guy remove 27 dead cows from a cut corn field one time .

know of one pony that died from to much corn .

Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #356027
06/24/12 10:34 PM
06/24/12 10:34 PM
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Ive been told that if a cow eats to much corn and drinks water it'll die.

Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #356033
06/24/12 10:51 PM
06/24/12 10:51 PM
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orange beach alabama
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fairwater Offline
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I guess florida has no deer.


LETS GO DEEP SEA FISHING!
Group rates for your family and friends.
Please click on my website and check us out.
www.orangebeachfish.com
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #357216
06/27/12 11:07 AM
06/27/12 11:07 AM
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Coffee Co, AL
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jlccoffee Offline
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Nobody said feeding corn would kill all the deer.

Rumen acidosis is a real thing though.

Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #357230
06/27/12 11:41 AM
06/27/12 11:41 AM
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Henry county
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Deer browse for the most part. They keep moving. I would think it would be very rare for a deer to eat that much enough corn and nothing else in Alabama to have this problem. Maybe up north or in a pen.


"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days" Ray Wylie Hubbard
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: coldtrail] #357232
06/27/12 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: coldtrail
Deer browse for the most part. They keep moving. I would think it would be very rare for a deer to eat that much enough corn and nothing else in Alabama to have this problem. Maybe up north or in a pen.


All they have to eat is enough to change the PH of the rumen contents to acidic.


From: Deer Farmers' Library (www.deer-library.com)

Nutrition
Avoiding and treating grain overload
By Brett Oliver-Lyons
Jul 25, 2003, 16:10



Grain overload, also known as "Lactic Acidosis" or "Acute Carbohydrate Engorgement", is a condition experienced by ruminants such as cattle, sheep and goats. Wild ruminants such as elk and deer appear to be more susceptible to this condition than traditional livestock species.

Acidosis usually occurs when animals have consumed large quantities of cereal grains or other sources of readily fermentable starch, or have had their diet suddenly switched from a high roughage diet to a high concentrate diet. It will usually manifest itself in the herd in one of two ways - an acute case will usually be terminal, while milder cases can be turned around. There is also the possibility that some of the affected animals will be more susceptible to secondary infections.

Acidosis is caused by an increase in lactic acid-producing bacteria in the rumen and the rapid production of lactic acid in both the d- and l- forms (these are the same chemical formula but have different rotational movement). It commonly occurs when there is a sudden change in diet, or when animals gain access to grain in large quantities. However, animals that are maintained on a high energy ration may normally be in a marginal state of acidosis due to the formation of lactic acid by the rumen bacterial flora. Therefore, ingredient changes, poor mixing of grains in the ration, or faulty feeding can produce acute acidosis in your deer.

Treatment must begin as soon as it is realized that an animal has eaten more than a normal amount (as little as half again as much) of grain or other sources of readily fermentable starch. The longer the treatment is delayed, the more difficult it is to reverse the progressive chain of events that will end in death in 2 to 4 days.

The underlying problem is the rapid fermentation of starch in the rumen with the resultant production of lactic acid. The lactic acid is picked up by the blood stream in amounts that are high enough to generally disrupt normal body chemistry. Lactic acid can also pool in joints and heavily worked muscles resulting in severe tendonitis, arthritis and lameness. It has also been suggested, that very acid conditions in the rumen may damage the lining of the mucous membrane, allowing bacterial to enter the blood stream and reach the liver, injuring this organ as well.

Usually the greedy feeders are the first to be affected. Symptoms comprise of staggering and apparent blindness, subnormal or normal body temperatures. This will usually be followed in 24 to 48 hours by recumbency, and finally coma and death. A profuse diarrhea may develop in later stages. Milder cases can recover when the high grain or high concentrate ration is removed, and extra roughage is provided.

The severity of the signs depend largely upon the amount of cereal grains or concentrates eaten. In the first few hours, a full rumen and restlessness may be all that is seen. There are mild cases, that do not progress beyond simple indigestion. However, in severe cases there may be evidence of extreme agitation and some pain (crying and getting up and down). The animal will often stagger and even appear blind. Their appetite will decrease dramatically during the first day as will rumen contractions. The feces may become soft.

The temperature of the deer will become sub-normal unless the animal is exposed to the hot sun. As the lactic acid level in the blood and body fluids increases, circulatory collapse or shock will begin; this will increase the heart rate. Animals with a heart rate of less than 100 are more likely to respond to treatment than those with a heart rate of 120-140 or higher. Respiration rate increases and breathing becomes shallow, diarrhea usually develop and is profuse.

The excess lactic acid in the rumen causes a large amount of fluid to be transported into the rumen. This process dehydrates the body and is detectable by an increase in the hematocrit reading (percentage of red blood cells in the whole body). This dehydration in combination with acidosis can cause circulatory collapse. This is best detected clinically by a paling of the mucous membranes, a fast heart but barely perceptible pulse. The rumen may feel full and doughy; if less grain was consumed, it may feel resilient because of increased fluid and gas. The rumen will have no contractions but one may hear a lot of gas rising through the fluid. Usually after two days the animal will lie down and not voluntarily get up.

The color of the mucous membrane of the eyes (vulva or penal sheath) should be observed early and regularly for evidence that the normal healthy pink is changing to pale pink or to white. If the mucous membranes are becoming pale, and the heart rate is above normal range, or if the animal is becoming depressed, or if it staggers slightly, or is showing evidence of pain, a veterinarian should personally evaluate and treat your animals.

In moderate cases, drenching or dosing 50 grams of magnesium hydroxide or magnesium oxide in a liter of warm water per 70 kg of body weight will work. In more severe cases, where the animal is still standing and the rumen pH is 5 to 6, a large stomach tube may be passed into the rumen. The rumen is washed with 10 to 15 irrigations. Tepid water is pumped in until obvious rumen distension occurs; then the rumen is allowed to empty by gravity. It is not enough to retrieve the water pumped in as any remaining grain must be washed out.

Systemic acidosis is combated with oral or intravenous fluid administration. Five percent sodium bicarbonate is given intravenously for severe acidosis at the rate of 500 ml per 100 lbs of body weight over a period of 30 minutes. This is followed by 1.3% sodium bicarbonate at the rate of 65 ml per lb of body weight over the next 6 to 12 hours. In severe cases, where the animal is down and in shock, the only life-saving procedure may be surgical removal of the grain from the rumen. This is a high-risk procedure, because of the already extremely bad condition of the animal. In cases that progress that far, there is also a high possibility of severe fungal rumenitis developing in 3 to 5 days. The owner should realize that surgery is much more apt to be successful earlier in the course of the disease at a time when conservative treatment still has a chance to work. The owner, with the advice of the veterinarian must decide the degree of acceptable risk.

Under most management systems, grain overload results from an over- consumption of grains or concentrates. It is advisable that rations for your deer should not contain a total cereal grain content higher than 35%. When changing a ration from one manufacturer to another, or even from the same manufacturer, changes should always be made slowly. Generally, it should take you 30 days to change from one feed to another by increasing the level of the new feed by 10% every three days. Always make sure that your animals have access to good quality pasture and forage as well as their regular rations.




Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #357241
06/27/12 12:04 PM
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Supplemental Feeding of Deer

Written by Chad Newbolt

Individuals interested in harvesting trophy bucks are continually looking for the magic bullet that will allow them to grow monster deer on their property. There is, unfortunately, no single thing you can do in Alabama that will allow you to shoot the 200- inch deer you see coming out of Canada on a regular basis. However, providing high-quality habitat and adequate nutrition is an important part of an effective trophy deer management program, and the more pieces of the deer management puzzle that you put together on your hunting land, the greater the odds that you’ll see the big one this season. http://mmidev3.com/images/stories/rdimages/deer_feeding_rok_236.jpg
One way that land managers seek to improve the quality of habitat and increase available nutrition is by supplemental feeding. Hunters and land managers sometimes refer to planting plots with forage, such as small grains and clovers, as supplemental feeding. However, planted plots generally are not considered supplemental feeds. Supplemental feeding consists of providing deer with concentrated food sources, such as pellet rations, corn or soybeans, either at feeders or on the ground. Although supplemental feeding can be an effective tool in deer management programs, individuals new to feeding often make mistakes which compromise the effectiveness of their efforts. These mistakes usually result in wasted time, money, and effort. Sometimes, improper feeds or feeding methods can prove deadly for deer. In the following editorial, I’ll provide you with all the information you need to avoid common mistakes and develop a safe and effective supplemental feeding program on your property.


Limit use of corn
If you asked 10 people who feed deer what kind of supplemental feed they use, I guarantee that at least nine would say corn. Yes, it’s true, deer love corn. However, deer, like people, often like things that are not best for their health. Although corn is rich in carbohydrates and provides lots of energy, it has little of the all-important protein that heavily influences body and antler growth. In fact, corn, on average, is only about 6-8% protein. Numerous studies show that a buck’s diet must consist of about 16% protein in order for him to reach his maximum potential in terms of body size and antler development. Other research shows that does will produce more and healthier fawns when their diets have adequate amounts of protein. Consequently, feeding corn will do little to improve the antler growth and health of your deer herd.

Another problem is that corn can be contaminated with a toxin produced by a mold called aflotoxin, which is extremely hazardous to animals, such as deer and livestock, and consumption often results in death. A common mistake made by people feeding corn, is purchasing the cheapest corn they can find. Corn usually is cheap for a reason, and the reason it is cheap is because aflotoxin levels are too high for it to be approved for livestock feed. If you must feed corn, always use that which is certified for livestock feed, even if it’s a little more expensive.

Yet another reason why you should limit use of corn is because of the potential for deer to develop a condition called acidosis (“founder”). Deer will often gorge themselves on corn, which can result in damage to that part of their stomach called the rumen. While acidosis can result from deer eating large quantities of other grains, it’s most commonly associated with feeding corn. Most of the time, damage to the rumen from acidosis will result in poorer health and body condition in the future; however, deer do sometimes die from acidosis. Always begin any supplemental-feeding program during a time of high food availability to help prevent acidosis.

In short, only use corn in limited amounts because of the low nutrient content and potential for health problems. In my opinion, there are only two ways that corn should be utilized in a supplemental feeding program. First, it can be mixed with soybeans or pellet rations when feeders initially are put out, to help attract deer and get them used to eating the other feed. Second, corn can be fed in small amounts during extremely cold periods to provide energy for body heat.

Use nutritious feeds such a soybeans or complete pellet rations
Soybeans are a good option for supplemental-feeding programs in free-range environments. Soybeans are readily available at any feed store, contain high levels of protein, and are easily dispensed by the typical cyclone-style feeders. Deer typically will eat fewer soybeans than corn, because of their high nutrient content, and sometimes have to be “trained” to eat them. This is most easily accomplished by mixing equal portions of soybeans and corn the first couple times the beans are put out and then gradually eliminating the corn as deer become accustomed to eating the beans.

Individuals who want to provide the most complete nutrition to their herd should feed a pellet ration. Complete rations are just that: complete. They not only provide high levels of protein but also fat, fiber, and minerals. Pellet rations do not dispense well from cyclone feeders, so covered trough or gravity feeders should be used. A common mistake that people make with complete rations is they overload on nutrients, especially protein. I recommend that the ration should be alfalfa or grain based and provide the following: 16–18% crude protein, 3% crude fat, 18–20% crude fiber, 1% calcium and 0.45% phosphorus. The rations typically will have various minerals; however, the levels of these other minerals generally are of lesser importance. I also do not recommend using wormers or other drugs sometimes put in feeds.

I do recommend that all owners of high-fence facilities feed complete pellet rations, for a number of reasons. First, deer densities often are high in these enclosures and feeding complete rations will help ensure deer receive adequate minerals and nutrients. Second, the extra cost of feeding high-quality rations is justified in an enclosure because you have greater control over other factors influencing trophy-deer production, such as harvest.

Use good feeding practices
There are a few other things you can do that will help prevent problems associated with supplemental feeding. First, be sure that feed is kept dry in both storage and in the field to help prevent mold and aflotoxin. Feeders also should be cleaned periodically to remove any buildup of moldy or rotten feed. Next, move feeders to new locations every month or so to help prevent the spread of parasites and diseases. Finally, don’t forget to be sure that your feeding program complies with your state’s regulations.

Chad Newbolt is a wildlife biologist for Sanctuary Whitetails Services (SWS). SWS specializes in assisting land owners with all aspects of trophy deer management, while also maximizing other recreational and investment opportunities. Chad can be reached at 334-332-4864 or chad@sanctuarywhitetails.com.

Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #357245
06/27/12 12:07 PM
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coldtrail Offline
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Acidic means the pH value below seven, what you posted said five or lower. pH values are on a logarithic scale. A five is 10 times lower than a 6, and a hundred times lower than a 7. It didnt say it to change the pH to an acidic value.

What was posted said it was rare, imo opinion its probably a lot rarer here than in other areas.


"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days" Ray Wylie Hubbard
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #357254
06/27/12 12:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,442
Supplemental feeding of some element class minerals can also be very hard on the deer. I've tried repeatedly over the past 25 years to feed them small amounts of copper, lead, aluminum, carbon and blended steel without any success. As a general rule of thumb, I've found that anything over about 90gr will have very detrimental and almost immediate effects on their survivability. Now my two boys are very actively involved in the project and helping me obtain additional data.

On a serious note, I do believe that if corn was available in sufficient quantity (tonnage), deer could become founded on it and have problems. I do not however think that is a real problem in AL because nobody that knows anything about management is supplementally feeding exclusively with corn at 8% CP. Most are illegally baiting with it 25-50lbs at a time which I do not think is a sufficient quantity to cause health issues. If so, Texas and all the other states that currently allow baiting and have for years, would have incurred and reported significant problems by now.

Last edited by abolt300; 06/27/12 12:59 PM.
Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #357264
06/27/12 01:08 PM
06/27/12 01:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,180
Coffee Co, AL
J
jlccoffee Offline
14 point
jlccoffee  Offline
14 point
J
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8,180
Coffee Co, AL
I have seen deer die from rumen acidosis. 25-50 lbs is plenty enough to cause acidosis in a deer....just depends on if one gorges it's self or not.

Re: How Many Deer Have You Killed? [Re: Shuter II] #357265
06/27/12 01:13 PM
06/27/12 01:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,739
Elmore County
Frankie Online content
Old Mossy Horns
Frankie  Online Content
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,739
Elmore County
ummmmm , i wonder about feeding a lot of soybeans , you can't feed them to calves i think ?

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