Chamberlin Interview

Watching THP and they interviewed Chamberlin. He said the research shows there is 0 difference between north alabama and south alabama or north ga and south ga in peak gobbling and peak nesting times. Said the peaks were within a day of each other regardless of where in the state the turkeys were. Guess if they gobble out before season it will at least be state wide.

Well my thoughts are clearly stated on a shell Coosa personalized for me…

Yep, this is going to be a good one.

I'd recommend quit watching thp and pinhoti and all these other "influencers" who are "influencing" people to believe the BS Chamberlain and nwtf are selling. Every time one of us watches their videos, we fund their agenda.

If there was any doubt in anyone's mind that Chamberlain doesn't know chit, that statement Ben cited proves it

For those interested, and it may have been mentioned before, there is an excellent weekly podcast series called “Wild Turkey Science”. It’s hosted by Will Gulsby of Auburn and Marcus Lashley of univ of Florida. They discuss all the research in a very open manner. There are some eye opening points made. They cover predators, habitat, mowing, burning, survivorship, etc….. just FYI.

Basically The same thru out the state - huh

Thats just dang stupid

100%. Dont give them views.

MS, AL and GA have all done similar studies to determine peak gobbling and nesting periods from north to south, and they all concluded the same thing. Being as to how I was involved in two of those studies I can assure you there’s no funny stuff going on behind the scenes or data manipulation. That’s not the results I was expecting but it is the results. There’s no significant difference on peak gobbling or nest initiation from Huntsville to Mobile. Studies conducted FAR before Chamberlain came along concluded the same thing. Now, I’m still not directly on board with everything Chamberlain theorizes, but he’s factually accurate on that part.

Call me a nonbeliever then because I’ll never believe that’s true

My biggest gripe is march 25th and i dont know chamberlain r hav an opinion on him

Heck - cut days off season - cut a bird/tag - jus open march 15 r 10

They trying to save birds - i get it - just hate they push season date back after early for all our lives

We got what we got and i would not hav thought that on same thru out state but i hav done no research on it

Heck, I collected data for it in two states and thought the results would be significant too, but in reality, they were not. I remember thumbing through some previous peer reviewed publications on it prior to beginning and thinking then there was no way it couldn’t differ by at least 7-10 days. Well, I was wrong. It didn’t differ.

We had a March 20th and it was hunters wanting to open earlier, the 15th. I never liked it opening the 15th just south of here. The northern zone opened April 1 but hunters wanted it earlier. I don’t remember exactly when it was pushed earlier but it’s been awhile that many didn’t realize when the original opener was for years.

^^^^
I like our deer season Carter and rules and hav always liked our turkey - i could liv w taking a bird from us pretty easy - i never hav 5 to hunt anyway - i am glad i still able to hunt

I just need to accept 25th amd move on - but it hotter amd more bugs and its been my experience that on march 25 they a hole lot more toward being henned up them on 15th r 20th

Birds on r off my property were not gobbling more than once r twice and had bunch hens w them already and had separated on march 25 last year - no ready gobblers to be found. They were still grouped up on 15th

I gone try to shut up amd move on - it is what it is. I always went to find a ready gobbler - that likely want happen any more - at least not on opening week - henned up birds not ready

PCP said it best - it will never b same again

I not hating on our management - just hav to learn to accept 25th - i will shut up now

Amd one more thing - guys w crap properties it impacts way more. If u only hav small acreage and only very few birds to hunt - u screwd royally. I hardly sat down to turkey the last 3 years amd most would quit if they went 3 weeks w our hearing. Most of turkeys i worked last 3 years were across creek on my neighbor - thats almost a 0 % chance to kill - but was grateful to work one

Now if u hav 100s and 1000s of acres to hunt w lot birds - u will likely find a ready bird still

What was your reasoning behind commenting about feeling sorry for the south AL guys the other week?

It’s not because of the belief turkeys are earlier down there. It’s simply because the vegetation is going to be fully leafed out and the heat is miserable to hunt in. It has more to do with the tradition of early spring hunting in the state.

It’s bad but TN has to the worst of all. They went to April 15-May 28. In southern TN it’s completely over by second week in May. KY and VA to the north end middle of May.The only two birds off the same WMA is the one I can’t get past in Alabama makes no sense to me.

And in S Alabama, the dang bull gnats will be so bad by opening day that’s it gonna be miserable. Will be 85 degrees and a swarm of gnats.

Do you happen to know the name of those studies to be able to look them up?......I was doing some reading and at least in this one study is reports a lot of variability in the timing.....or am I interpreting that incorrectly?? I'm with others on this one and it just doesnt make sense for it to be the same as you keep moving south to north and Spring becomes later and later


https://usgs-cru-individual-data.s3.../Casalena_et_al_NWTF_symposium2016-1.pdf

Ranges of median nest incubation initiation dates were as variable as 21 days during a 12-year period in Mississippi (Miller et al.1995, Miller et al. 1998), 26 days during 4 years in Arkansas (Thogmartin and Johnson 1999), and 28 days during 8 years in Missouri (Vangilder et al. 1987, Vangilder and Kurzejeski 1995). Ranges were as brief as 8 days in Vermont over a 14-year period (D. Blodgett, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife, unpublished data), and 7 days in New Hampshire during a 2-year period

I approve this message

Chamberlain could be a spokesman for the National Democratic Party.

Facts are facts

Bullchit…………Results of any given study don’t make it a definitive conclusion……It simply means, these are the results we got from this particular test under these particular conditions during this particular time frame.

Trust the science

The Original Date.....55 years ago when I killed my first Turkey always worked......March 20th(which actually is the first day of Spring) to April 25th. Then it got jacked around with....oh well.

Right but this is many tests with the same result.

This.

Well, there actually hasn’t been any facts dropped just yet in this here thread, so I’ll get the party started.

Myself and an army of other hunters have been fortunate enough to hunt just about every corner of the state. There’s a huge network of hunters, including aldeer, friends and family, talks at baseball fields and churches, etc, etc. The peak gobbling differences from south to north has been common knowledge for a long time. Myself along with an army of others, hunt in Marengo and Clarke county on March 15th - we hear multiple birds gobble 100’s of times. I and others communicate with friends and family hunting the northern 1/3 of the state on M15, and they hear a couple birds gobble a couple of time. By April 10th, this trend completely reverses. Myself and an army of other foresters/hunters walk up on a hen sitting on a nest on April 20 - and then communicate with friends and family hunting the northern 1/3 of the state - and the story goes - I sat on a henned up gobbler all morning with multiple hens.

Now - that’s an army of hunters - numbers in the 1000’s, that hear and see these truths firsthand. So - I just dropped a study on you with straight facts homie. What y’all got? Let’s hear the details and the sample size. I’m here for it.

I’m not arguing with what you’ve observed. I actually said I would expect there to be a difference. HOWEVER, the studies that have been conducted SO FAR concluded no significant difference.

I’ll try to dig up some stuff. It’s been many years since I reviewed them.

Matt, I respect your opinion and want to see the study. I actually can be open minded. I want to see all parameters. And why in the world would that study not be printed far and wide at this time. This is a passionate issue for hunters. Does the study have thousands upon thousands of observations - cool - I want to see it. Does it have 30 gobbling detectors hung in a tree - well in that case - let’s just not.

I would like to look at them if you could find them Matt…..

This whole process revolves around certain stages of plant growth, insect cycles, etc during the Spring green-up…….It would make no sense whatsoever for turkey reproduction to be a static date on the calendar that didn’t show any correlation with the difference in timing of these stages from south to north……low to high elevation. Understory vegetation in Mobile is at a much different stage of growth than understory vegetation in Mentone or Skyline on any given date during the Spring. I would be suspect of it being something in the sampling data if it didn’t show this.

Thanks 247 - i thought north to south was common knowledge too but i never looked at statistics on it

I think thats why New York season stays open till june - further north - their is a difference and i would think even a diff n same state from
N to S

I could not tell a big difference hunting north fl birds and marengo county - but if u go all way to top of state it has to b a diff

And now that u mention it - i remember talking to guys that hunt north bama and their birds r behind

The more i think about it - i can also remember thinking back - south arky birds were always ahead of n arky birds

So we can also discuss latitude. More facts!

There’s about 4.5 degrees of difference in AL. The next 4.5 degrees north would put you in south central IL, IN, and Ohio.

You would have to believe Huntsville AL would have the same peak gobbling as south central Illinois, Indiana and Ohio. Anybody believe that? Any studies needed?

Agree with everything you sayin 247…people get so wrapped up in theory’s that they lose common sense…or they just may be stupid from the get go

Back when we had lots of turkeys on our place in Monroe County, we always heard the most gobbling in the first 10 or so day of April. The last couple of years was about the same on the few gobbles I heard.

Not theories, research results is what this thread is about.

We are still waiting on any research results. So far we are relying on MBrocks word that the research evidence exists. Yall hold your breath waiting on that to be delivered

Mbrock you are a wealth of knowledge and I generally agree with you, but there is absolutely no way breeding/gobbling dates don't vary from Mobile to Huntsville. I will never be convinced to believe that regardless of what study I see, but the number of those studies I've seen at this point remains 0.

I always knew he and Matty was boys

I can understand hearing some young birds gobbling from North to South beginning in March just like we at times hear birds gobbling in January
I just cannot believe the majority of birds (old and young) are gobbling and breeding at the same time throughout the state
If there is research showing this I'd like to see who did the study and how they came to this conclusion
The same people coming up with the same conclusions throughout 3 states stinks to high heaven IMO

To be the devils advocate if day length is what triggers breeding then temperatures and green up would be secondary. For those that have laying hens when days start getting longer they start laying again. Just a thought.

Kinda why I brought it up. Hunters are their own worst enemies at times

I don’t know why it was changed but I recall all the hoopla hunters presented wanting change. Especially up here in the northern zone. So change it is and no one is happy once again.

There will never ever be a complete consensus amongst hunters or any group.

Stop me if I’m wrong here but gobblers call the hens to them for breeding....So to at least some degree they would be playing a role in the timing too, correct??……What if the day length triggers a time frame when the hens are able to start laying and the temperature triggers when the gobblers start calling them in to be bred??....

Sounds like a theory

They’ll gobble year around just very limited. I’ve heard them end of deer season west it out

Exactly……they could gobble in January but until you cross whatever day length threshold that triggers the process in the hens then the hens probably wouldn’t respond to it. If day length is playing a factor in the hens then there’s going to have to be some threshold where they all get triggered like a “start” button…….Maybe the switch to longer days starts a process in the hens and starting on “X” date the process could start at any time depending on what the gobblers are doing …….the temperature cranks up gobbling activity and breeding occurs where the two mesh……….Somewhere in here the efficiency of the process is gonna have to come into play when determining the median date for which hens begin incubation……. and be variable from one area to the next.

So what could be happening here for a lot of folks to show similar nesting dates across the southeast is that this current long term warming trend we’re in has the gobblers getting fired up earlier and earlier the farther south you go……..and they are getting farther and farther ahead of the hen start button being pushed. Maybe we’re to the point of the whole state being backed up behind the “start” button threshold so to speak. Maybe as you mover farther and farther north into Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, etc…..somewhere you pass a line where later this spring the hens will be ready and waiting on the gobblers to fire up. Warming and cooling trends move that line north and south over time. Just a theory……..It would be a good way for nature to balance out the whole process of weather/climate fluctuations over time on a large scale.

Don't worry about half a dozen studies, run by half a dozen different scientists, that all determine the same thing. My uncle daddy step brother says they done gobble out down south early and been that way for years and that's all I need to know. He's hunted up all in the way in high Jackson down to Dothan and ought to know

maybe maybe

maybe…… and maybe 🤔

Maybe all research isn’t tainted by some hidden agenda.

Hunters scream for research. If the research doesn’t match how the hunters feel, they say research is stupid and doesn’t mean anything. Typical.

Have you reviewed some research on the matter? Please report.

Matt - please post the paper when you get a chance - should have been front and center when seasons were changed. Would be great for this particular matter obviously.

Dirkdaddy- have you reviewed 6 papers from 6 researchers? Please report.

OP - do you have Chamberlains hard date - please report.

Deadeye - do you have some papers and hard data - please report.


Show us the studies. Every. Single. Detail.


The only facts here so far - is in my first post. That’s it. Huge sample sizes with no agendas. We thought the seasons just were what they were. Great for the southern 1/3 of AL, and too early for the northern 1/3. It’s not heresy, like implied - not even close. It’s real actual observations in the thousands over many years.

That post from Matt oughta answer any questions anyone has about the validity of the research. It's not what I expected either, but who knows what variables may be in play to affect individual studies.

The thing is, there is a line somewhere that moves these dates later the further north you go. They are surely later in KY, and much later than that in Maine. You would think that the dates would gradually move later in the year as you go north, and there would be a direct relationship. I would have thought it would be something like a day per 100 miles as a wild guess, but it must not be linear in that manner.

It's actually good news for turkey management that all 3 states are the same. We don't have to wonder about what effect a later season and a lower limit will make in AL. All we have to do is look at GA, who has had both for decades. Everyone can see the immediate change in the turkey population as you cross the state line, and GA has way more turkeys than we do. Right?

If any of these studies are dependent on the average turkey hunter reporting honest info then they’re doomed from the get go because most of y’all would lie to your Mama on her b’day to beat another hunter to a hot bird.

So you’re saying you made a phone call to buddies up north Alabama and that’s cold hard facts
I need to see the time of that call and hear the recorded message of that conversation so I can add that to my cold hard facts
Then my study will be complete

Now you are calling me a liar. You are calling a huge network of hunters, foresters and outdoorsman - straight up liars. You can be butthurt all you want. But that ridiculous rhetoric is unproductive.

No he’s just asking for the same thing you’re asking for. You want facts to back up Matt’s findings and he wants facts to back up your finding. Not hearsay!! Butthurt or not. That’s what he’s asking for. Every time I’m at the camp during turkey season, I have guys calling me and asking if they are gobbling. Care to guess what the answer is. I’ve learned long ago that I’d trust info I got from the local crackhead before I’d trust what a fellow turkey hunter tells me.

Marsh - if a guy on aldeer posts a dead turkey and says it gobbled a 100 times - is your first inclination to just say, well - he’s a liar. If you talk to a buddy after season, and they say - yeah, they gobbled slow this week, good the next week, and great the next - do you say - man, I don’t believe you.

I don’t think we are on the same page with that. I’m not sure why y’all are getting bent out of shape about it. These are large groups of people just sharing experiences over many years.

And I will give anyone on here the common courtesy of sharing something valid and not jump to calling them a liar. We just want to see the research. I’ve read and listened to a bunch before, and will again.

Not butt hurt at all but as Marsh said I’d like to see your paperwork
If your gonna call somebody out by requesting paperwork you should at least have your own ready to present it
Saying you made a phone call isn’t hard data
Heck I’ve only got 2 PHD’s and I know that

I’m going off real life experience. I’m just a dumb coonass from the marsh but it didn’t take me long to learn that I will never tell the truth when it comes to turkey hunting info. It is my belief that I figured that out as a rookie, I can only believe that real turkey hunters are way worse with info then I am.

One thing that really leads to believe the research is unbiased and I’m using hunter experience so I’m covering both bases.

Comparing poult pics from south Alabama with the ones I see in north Alabama. There’s always outliers yet for the most part the poults are generally only a week apart in size. That’s pics I see in here and on Facebook. I used to think there was a big difference but when I can reference the majority of pics and the similarities there’s no denying that.

Man I with you and know exactly what you are talking about. Definitely a hunting club dynamic I have experienced myself.

But this is more than that - a huge networking thing. When I was sitting at a turkey show running a booth, and a fellow stopped to talk, and says - hey, I just joined a club in St. Clair county, AL, when should I take a week off to hunt - I would say, the first week of April in St. Clair was always on fire, and I would wait until then. When the next fellow stopped by and said - hey, I just joined a club in Clarke county, AL, when should I take a week off to hunt - I would say, you better be there the first week of season my friend.

I was telling the truth as we saw it and I can guarantee you - I did not lead those guys astray.

^^^^

Amen 247

March had always blown away april for me - why i always choose first week of season to be off - was way more exciting 15th and 20th

I think they way ahead this year from what i seen in the past - seeing bunch of hens w one strutter amd getting that same report from Many other dudes

Contrary to my initial thoughts……..I could see how they may indeed have it right…….Even though gobbling activity may be different from Mobile to Huntsville……..the timing of the hens being ready to breed may virtually be the same. I think you may need to zoom out on this one and look at the population level as being on a really big scale……like Florida to Maine type scale instead of Mobile to Huntsville……

That first week in April would’ve been the best for both of those guys.

That’s has always been the best time for our place. That was the first thing our neighbor told us 10yrs ago. If we had one week to hunt, make sure it’s within the first 10 days of April. He was right.

First week has alway been the best week. Most are hunting at that time the birds haven’t been pressured

Second week if needed has been hardest because of pressure and the east birds died

Third week had been great. Hens are setting lonely gobblers

Fourth week. Lonely gobbler will gobble but won’t play the game. They’ve been hammered and don’t like that hen that won’t come to him. He’ll go the other way most of the time.

During the season they’re always a kamakazee that wants to die. Those are fun.

If there was any doubt as to why the dnr doesn’t listen to Joe Schmo the turkey hunter, this thread should be the first thing referenced. Can you imagine wading through the amount of ignorance displayed here just to get to someone with good sense like PCP or a couple others? My goodness.

So true!

Just a opinion but for every 20 raccoons and possums you turn in you get another tag . Leave the dates as is and quit manipulating them. I believe Matt B on everything since he was in on the data .

I’ll post it when I have time. Contrary to popular belief I have responsibilities other than digging up old research papers. 😂

But I am doing it. I have found a few I’ll post when I get several together. The ones I’m going to reference and the ones I assisted with both had biologists and/or graduate students listening for gobbler activity (recorded number of birds heard and number of individual gobbles) from a time period usually from March 1 until the end of May. Without exception the peak gobbling activity in most of the southern states begin to peak in late March, with a big increase in early April, followed by another big increase in late April to early May. Peak nest incubation usually falls from the third week in April to the first week of May. Y’all just be patient. I’m not avoiding this. I am simply very busy!

For 20 coon tails you should get a bonus “early bird” tag that’s good from March 15-25th

I watched a hen get bred this morning…in Randolph County.

Agree 100%



This is from this years Gulsby project in Alabama. There were from 42 Autonomous Recording Units (basically a trail cam that records gobbles not pics) from Feb through July. They are out there 24/7 and capture a remarkable amount of the gobbles (more than I would have expected, probably nearly as many as my ears capture). These units were on both private and public land. When they combine the data with other folks doing this it will be a huge dataset. This particular data is like having 42 guys listening every morning from the last of Feb through July - roughly 130 mornings.



This is Chamberlains data also from AL. I am unclear if it is additional or separate data.

Turkey 247, I enjoy your posts and you have a good grasp of the bird, hunting and management. Level-headedness is rare here While this is interesting, valuable and good info, it is NOT a study, research nor science. It has no context nor ability to verify "facts". Thats one of the problems folks have with science here is it takes a long time to gather, establish protocols and verify and analyze. Often the results aren't what we expect and we have to deal with that. Like CNC said, results are simply what was seen on that place on that time with those variables. "Common knowledge" is often wrong. Lots of folks think black panthers are "common knowledge"

I was around and part of the season change from the 20th to the 15th. It was pushed because the daylight savings came in like Mar 25th and moving to the 15th would allow working hunters a few more weekday mornings before the time changed. !

Here’s my conflict with these results. The distance from mobile to the Tennessee line is almost the same change in latitude, as the Tennessee line to the southern border of Pennsylvania/ Indianapolis/ northern Missouri, etc……. So at what latitudinal change can we see a variation?

I’ve hunted about an hour south of Orlando, FL, south and central AL, and several States out west. All of them were better hunting in April. 🤷‍♂️

Here is some pseudo science.
I keep good records of every morning hunt and have since about 1986 or so. I analyzed my gobbling records since 2015 (PITA to go back farther but I could). My gobbling (number of gobblers heard) stays flat all season. However my number of mornings that I hear 0 DECLINES all season from week 2 to week 6. I kill more in week 5 than other weeks and I kill least in weeks 1 and 2. Also my number of gobblers per morning has declined through the years and last year was the most 0 heard mornings I have recorded (which led me to start to analyze it). Just FYI

Clarke-marengo always henned up some time last week march and it goes weeks - large lull late march on into april for weeks

And most any state i been to other than bama been easier than bama regardless of month

This spring should b interesting here - single gobs already been seen w large groups of hens here strutting - everything blooming and pollen everywhere. Several here saying they separating and its only early march

Watched one get bred this morning!

Appreciate the words. I don’t mind being wrong. I’ll take a loss and move on just like we all should. I won’t run and hide from it. We should expect some data at some point, and it’s why I keep pushing. Some of the guys on here that know me - know how much I’ll play devils advocate for the sake of conversation.

Do I wish it was more than 42 units, dang I gotta say I do. Is that enough sample size over that area to be acceptable - if it is for the question at hand - I’ll accept that as well.

I also believe we should be passionate about things we care about. We can only experience what we experience. My hunting observations, and many others, have shown we hear more gobbling and have higher quality hunts in the early season - the farther south we hunt. Obviously- I know this isn’t a study. But it was and is a truth - we had/have no reason to lie. Just guys hunting, having fun, and trying to maximize results on properties we have availability to hunt. Just like your gobbling observations you have recorded - I wouldn’t call you or anyone else a liar for sharing that. How could that be productive in any way? My goal is to be able to hunt when things are rocking and get results.

I think the temps have a major part in activity. Whether nesting or not, the temps play a factor in gobbling and turkey movement, which that is all we care about from a hunting stand point. Same can be said for deer. During the rut, mild weather doesn’t typically play into hunter success, regardless of contraceptive dates. We have a mild February and the birds start gobbling and doing their thing, and everyone complains about how they will already be done by the time season rolls around. Everyone is for dates that betters their opportunity and is against dates in the name of conservation… if science backs what conservation is preaching right now…

Again. There is no conflict with results. They are what they are. Same with radio- telemetry. I hear folks all the time tell me their turkeys (deer or quail, etc) don't do that. "my turkeys roost in the same area all season and have home ranges of a couple hundred acres at most". Telemetry tells a different story. Sorry. Every turkey that gets a radios hung on it has home ranges in the thousands of acres and gobblers roost in different areas almost daily, sometimes hundreds of yards apart night after night. The results are here simply that these recording units scattered on properties form north to south in AL recorded these gobbling turkeys at these times. Thats it!

Just go ahead and make it Alabama residents only for the early bird tag.

I experienced some pretty fired up birds last year from March 25th - April 5th across two counties. The woods were still fairly open in the pictures of dead birds. We’ll see how fired up they are this year on these dates with limbs drooping with leaves. Also experienced an unusually hot bird fired up late April at the same latitude. Just go hunting and enjoy not being somewhere else, birds are out there. I’m new to the forum by the way, and no I will never ever tell you where I am hunting.

^^^
Good luck Ghost

Gobbler - do you know how far the detection units can hear? You mentioned something that referenced maybe as well as a human ear - concerning distance.

Can we assume better on cold crisp mornings and worse on windy afternoons, etc.? And I’m guessing 14 units per 3 zones.

Maybe the full report isn’t available, just curious.

My experiences and logic doesn't comply with these travel results, but I guess maybe... Just the chances of the same three birds living around the same 8 acre greenpatch for multiple days near bout the whole season on a 200 acre super low pressured tract would disagree. Or the same color phase bird using the same 50 acre pasture day after day until I shot him and he's now stuffed in my house. Or a bird roost in a similar location day to day, heck I've killed most of mine on the second day any how(that dang scout bird has killed many of its compadres apparently.)

UNLESS there are WAY more birds alive and more unique ones than I believe? There's no way this is random only to my spots. I've lived these scenarios sometimes over and over. And like turkey247, my network of buddies(which is extremely small and trusted) have had similar experiences.

I mean what are the chances that three different gobblers bunch up together on the same dirt day after day for a month or multiple red phase birds tending to a group of hens in a cow pasture day after day (maybe I should have went back to hunt his twins? Or maybe I did and I scared them to the next county and never saw them again?) Some of you may also say, well you suck for not killing one/some of that group over a season. And that could be partly true but I'm to a place where I've killed some, so I can walk away and be satisfied watching the show just or way out of range, and because I've experienced getting to do it tomorrow more than several times almost watching the same show? Based off sine if these studies I either have a places that have unlimited refills like McDonald's or it's the same birds?

I hate to question studies, because I'm a lifelong close friend with a "well known" biologist on this site who has been cited in some of them. I understand scientific outliers also, but the fact that I must be the outlier king since my experiences tend to disagree with alot of them doesn't make sense either. Look, I don't want anybody questioning my profession either, but on this particular topic my experiences make me wonder at least.

I don't really care about the gobbling study cause I'm going if the season is in loud or quiet. I've heard more turkeys gobble in May in Alabama than any other time in my area. So my experiences or thoughts of gobbling being "done" have long passed, I'm sure some of you all have different experiences and thoughts. And that's OK too!

BUT...

Also I don't think these studies have "made up" results. I just wish my experiences (as many of you do wish) would line up with these papers. How in the world they pick the roamers to wear radios is crazy and then miss all the homers on our places?

I have been told as far or similar to human hearing. 1/2-3/4 mile on a good morning? Hard to tell and it undoubtedly varies but the units are consistent day to day. They are trying to get even amounts on public and private land in similar "zones". Work in progress.




You, as well as many others, have "special" birds that don't conform to the years of research and thousands of radio-tagged turkeys. Ask PCP about the dam turkey!

You mentioned potentially combining with other units - is there a number of these and a distribution that satisfies a sample size?

With 42, you have one unit for every 800,000 acres in AL. Shaving down to timbered acres - it would be one unit for every 548,000 acres.

I still have faith - at this point anyway - that no state would make wholesale changes of any kind at that sample size. At least I hope not.

Might as well spool up reels.

This is just a thought, may or may not be true I don’t know. I feel like turkeys gobble better during a high pressure weather pattern. Front moves through, they gobble some, next day is always windy and they may gobble some in the wind. But the next day, that cool crisp morning and a bluebird sky with almost zero wind, they usually (not always but usually) gobble their heads off. They are easier to kill when they gobble obviously, but this gobbling cycle doesn’t always mean you kill them on the third day. Sometimes they come on the first and second day with less gobbling. My point is, I feel like gobbling activity peaks and valleys may have more to do with weather patterns than peaks of breeding. So just because a study says that gobbling may peak the same days across the state, doesn’t necessarily mean that breeding peeks across the state. Or kills peak across the state. If a front moves through the area it covers the entire state, and the same with a high pressure system.

Maybe you guys feel different about the way weather impacts gobbling activity. I know there are always exceptions. I’ve had one gobble like crazy on the windy day, and heard one gobble like crazy while the front moved in. But I’m my experience it’s not the norm.

Obviously, they aren't trying to saturate the state but get sample properties that would represent public and private across the state. I don't recall the density but if they hear like we do, it would capture a significant portion of the gobblers on the properties. Significant sample size would depend on what you were trying to do with the data. I know both Chamberlain and Gulsby are deploying these units and they are putting up more each year. They cost money to buy and take folks to deploy and monitor. Bear in mind, most research is not conducted to give the state ammunition to make regulation changes. I think the weak 5 year project Grand conducted was specifically for that reason and gave Auburn and the State a black eye. Chamberlain maybe. But most research is conducted to gather information which the State can use as they see fit.

One of the things that has bothered me about Chamberlain has been his hyperbole in describing the research findings. I listened to him on a Meateater podcast and he said that the turkeys gobbled way more on unhunted land than hunted land. I don't remember the adjectives he used, but he described a huge difference.

When SC gutted their season, they referred to that study as proof that they just had to limit hunting. But the chart they published showed a difference of around 11 gobbles per day on unhunted land to 9 gobbles a day on the hunted land. Does anyone really believe that an additional 2 gobbles per day will mean more poults on the ground? I don't, and that's just one example of Chamberlain hyperbole. I could mention several more, but it's pointless. Good hunting to everyone!

If you haven't heard it, we hunted the dam turkey 3 years. He roosted in a group of 4 or 5 pines right below the damn of the pond. One day I got lucky and killed him, but the next week he was back! Still acted exactly the same, so I know it was the same one.

We've killed him several times since; my son in law got him this past year. He always has a long beard and looks and acts exactly the same. Gotta be the same one. I hope he is back this year.

I just listened, and will listen again, to Chamberlains interview with Lashley and Gulsby. In reference to the SC study, there was an almost double in nesting success on the unhunted property as well as better renesting success. I think that was one of several drivers for the decision. He noted that gobbling peak and nest laying and incubation occurred at the same time on both the hunted and non hunted property sites. However, gobbling intensity lasted longer on the unhunted. One fact that remains across studies is that 70-80 % of birds harvested occur in the first 14 days of season….. which is prior to laying in many states. You gotta at least consider that initiation of hunting season timing could screw up birds. Again, 70-80% of gobblers harvested occur in the first 14 days of season.

"If a turkey gobbles in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" What a load of crap this Chamberlain guy quotes.

I am far from one to think I can make an argument to refute years of research and thousands of radio tagged turkeys, but I do think you can have "homers" and here is the reason I believe this. Years ago in a club I hunted, there was an old turkey me and a buddy tried to kill every way imaginable but couldn't. He was very distinguishable. He had a softball size head, he had a beard like none I had ever seen. 12" at least and a super thick paint brush. We had multiple camera pics of him throughout the season, all in the same area he liked to roost and strut. My buddy had eyes on him and almost killed him twice. I came close a couple times. Oe morning I got set up within 60 of him on the roost and watched him strut the limb for an hour. Same bird, beard was so long and thick he could have tied it off on the limb and hung himself. This was before TSS was big or I would have been tempted to limb launch him he gave so much grief. Finally, we never saw him again. He either moved or got killed on the neighboring property. But I'l go to the boneyard believing it was the same turkey we hunted all of that season.

Yet data shows (including chamberlains) that hens still initiate nests even with earlier openers at similar rates as later openers. Arknasas has been doing the late openers for 10+ years with zero improvement

Deleted

Yes. With a different success rate. Lower.

Thus far, Tennessee has seen no improvement either.

Hell bells . Lol

Did you read the study that documented that increase in nesting success, or just hear him say it? I would really appreciate a link to it, if you have one. I remember being frustrated by the fact that I couldn't read the actual study that was referenced when SC made those changes. All I was able to find was a few charts and their summary, though I would say that SC did refer to research a lot more than any of the other states that made changes. Thanks for any help with it.

I have always thought that it should be relatively easy for research to document the improvement in poult recruitment on unhunted land vs hunted land. They do poult counts in multiple places every year. There should be tens of thousands of data points from every state over decades that should document that there is a difference, and make an estimate as to how much it is.

I asked Chamberlain on one of his Twitter threads 3 years ago the following:

>>>Me: Interesting paper! I'd already heard most of those concerns. How much higher is the poult recruitment rate on unhunted land vs similar land that is hunted? I think that is the number you need to publicize.

Him: We are just beginning a large-scale study on a nonhunted population, and can hopefully answer that question.

Me:
Thanks for the reply. I would have thought that had been studied long ago. The SC study had lots of info about their nonhunted area, but I couldn't find any mention of the poult recruitment rate on it. I was surprised by that.

Him: Yes, we've been doing gobbling work there for several years, but only recently secured enough funding to do the reproductive work.<<<

https://twitter.com/DrShortSpur/status/1250032730764537859?t=w_494GbYRY6W73LBLufYaw&s=19

He didn't mention the results that you heard about, so I would really like to read it.

I’ve made mention of your dam turkey on numerous occasions. I think it shows that hunter observations are sometimes not as they seem.

Definitely not me questioning the roaming gobbler idea. One of the primary places I have access to hunt has a bunch of roaming birds. We actually rarely see jakes. It bothered me at first - but there’s always replacement gobblers the next year.

It would appear to me that they are just playing a game of king of the hill combined with musical chairs that’s being fought over prime strutting/breeding locations on the map……..It would have to be a fluid situation where this bird is king of that spot until he aint…….I’m assuming within each clutch, like with a litter of puppies, you have some dominant birds and some subordinate from the beginning. The music starts in the spring and around they go fighting, flogging, and fornicating……..I would have to believe that population density would play a big role in how that ultimately plays out……Do the “replacement” birds run out before the hens get bred efficiently?

I don’t think any of the late openers are after the initial nesting timeframe. So, it would stand to reason that there would be no change. No big shock.

Not anywhere I hunt.

But we have to shoot less so somebody 7 counties away can have more. Try to keep up

So basically you’re saying that with a high enough gobbler to hunter ratio then this would likely not be a limiting factor, correct???.........Areas with more hunters and less birds would be more likely to be impacted??

This is spot on. He specifically mentioned in the podcast interview (“wildturkeyscience” podcast) that ideally it would be delayed until after incubating began. However that would not be popular with turkey hunters (you think?? So a compromise was developed by several states.

I’m from Arkansas. We have been dicking with late openers and changing season dates for 15 years. We don’t have any more turkeys now than 5,10, or 15 years ago.

Our farm was where turkeys were stocked (in our area) in the mid 80’s with an agreement to not hunt for 5 years. The explosion in the early to mid 90’s was something I’ll never see again. Granted I was young then.
Once the food chain and everything stabilized out in the mid 2000’s, our population is largely the same as now.
I think when your turkey population gets to that point, it takes timber cutting/habitat improvement and trapping to bolster any population.

I don’t have any damn issue with doing whatever it takes to have turkeys to hunt in the future for my boys.
My problem lies in the fact that Chamberlain came along with his delayed season agenda in a time when people were thirsty for an answer and drank his kool aid by the gallon. Everyone jumped on his ideas like it was last call at quitting time and there was still a 3.5 hanging out in the bar.

But everything Chamberlain said, Arkansas had been doing for a decade at that point.
If we need to start season later then fine. But don’t take something away we will never get back if it’s not necessary or won’t have an affect.
I think Chamberlain is an intelligent guy, but am very glad we have other biologists stepping up to the plate.

As would I. I have been trying to get something on it on google scholar but nothing like he is quoting comes up.

I’m looking as well. There appears to be several papers / projects off that SC property. Maybe no one paper makes all the points??

Once again, follow the science. Trust the government. Fall in line sheeple. Chamberlain = Faucci of turkey biology. All of these biologists have all these studies backing the limit reductions and season postponements but I've yet to seen one presented for the public viewing. Are these research documents subject to FOIA? I would think so since taxpayers are funding it

The simple thing for them to do is to implement their plan in WMA’s for 2 seasons and see if they work
With those thousands of acres if it doesnt work there it won’t work anywhere else and all the lease/private land is safe from idiocy

Great idea. Common sense.

I believe that Chamberlain has been doing that with several GA WMAs for several years now. I suspect that they haven't gotten the results they wanted. If they did, we would hear about it, constantly.

I think that sums it up very well on good turkey habitat. If you have hens, you will have a gobbler with them. Kill him one morning, and they will somehow replace him before the day is over.

I wouldn't accuse him of making stuff up, but I think he is capable of cherry picking limited data to support his ideas. If anyone wants to see examples, look back at his presentation to the CAB a few years ago. He said that AL was where ARK was 10 years ago. That isn't research, it's just a doomsday prediction. AL has places where turkey populations have remained steady for 60 years. Nobody should mistake ARK rice fields for turkey habitat, even though they might have had some right after restocking.

Don’t come up in here posting facts!! You have some on this website that truly believe the government and delaying are season is going to increase the Turkey population 😂 All a fella has to do is look at AR and GA to realize delaying our season is hogwash if that’s the end goal!!

The most important rule to winning any argument is to first not let your opponent have more counter facts than you. This means to thoroughly understand their argument, their hard evidence, and alternative defenses that may present. Holding your hands over your ears and yelling “that’s just ridiculous because I’ve seen xyz for 40 years” won’t cut it. I think we can all agree, and whether you know it or not, several University biologist agree, that delaying season, the way they have done it, has shown to not be successful and most likely never will be. Because that’s not the problem. It may be “a problem”, but not THE problem. So what are other possibilities?? Well, we need to know what research has shown from multiple studies and not an extrapolated opinion of what’s going on from a possible pessimistic researcher.

I have totally enjoyed hearing all the discussions, regardless of whether or not I agree with every point. I guess the thing that keeps coming back is the cyclical nature of nest yield regardless of the items being studied. I makes me wonder what factors are being missed, either because they haven't thought of them, or because they haven't got the funding to design and conduct a study yet. For instance, if I understood correctly, North Carolina, Tennessee, Mississippi and Louisiana all had terrible poult production in 2020, but great production in 2021. Was there a single factor that had that affect on such a broad region? I'm not smart enough to know.

Fluctuations in annual rainfall......causing fluctuations in vegetation growth......causing fluctuations in rodent boom bust cycles...... causing fluctuations in avian predators use of alternative food sources (turkey poults)

At one time, I made an annual visit to SE Kansas to turkey hunt. The guys I hunted with called and told me not to come. Their birds had simply disappeared. No piles of feathers, no sign, nothing. Just gone. They blamed it on two things: The area they knew birds nested had flooded and stayed underwater for much of the spring. They also blamed the locals for trucking in chicken litter from Arkansas for fertilizing pastures. Who knows. So many factors. It's another case as a hunter of working with the things you can control and not worrying about the things you can't.

And I still say there are guys on here (MBrock, Gobbler, PCP) that I trust more than Chuck or the CAB.

The biggest problem seems to be this screwed up system we have in place where folks play dumb and point to the most convenient action to them as being “the solution” while ignoring the other obvious factors

Blah......blah....blah blah...blah.....bullchit, bullchit, bullchit.......blah blah

Ok, if MS, AL and GA 's turkey's all breed at the same time and these states know this , why are the seasons so different? After all seasons are supposed to revolve around breeding.