AL DCNR Survey

Here comes the limit reduction. This survey is just the beginning for making the argument that turkey populations are down and the limit is too high

Yup... I got it an email this morning...

No matter what they put the limit at people will still break the law. Still jus boils down to honor and ethics, I use to think turkey hunters were a group that had the most of these two traits that has seemed to change.

What I see in the statistics is showing 10% of the birds reported are in our turkey contest...

Me too.

I have been filling it out all year, but can't put in any harvest. My computer will not show the last couple of categories on the screen.

I have been filling it out all year, but can't put in any harvest. My computer will not show the last couple of categories on the screen.

These statistic are from the turkey's reported on the game check system... Granted, this is not a requirement so I know the number is skewed, but I guarantee it will have a direct reflection to determining bag limits.

I just completed the survey. I'm interested in hearing everyone's responses. I haven't been turkey hunting for 10 years so I don't know if things are better or worse.

I know on our property there are more turkeys than when we bought it five years ago. I've really tried hard to improve the holding capacity for turkeys. I really don't know if there are more than there were five years ago or if we've just drawn them in.

This is south Cullman co. where there aren't a lot of turkeys to start with.

Kyle, Send some of your across the river, I need some.

I got mine as well. Filled it out with some additional comments at the end. The state needs to address a lot more issues before adjusting a unenforceable bag limit. It's the least of the issues in my opinion.

You may will be right; our generous limit is not politically correct with the women that run the nwtf, and I think they are putting pressure on our state people.

But of course, the voluntary game check system is less than worthless from a scientific view of measuring the harvest. The hunter survey, which is science-based, has shown no decline in harvest numbers. I'm doubting that science wins on this one, but maybe I'm wrong.

One good sign was that they set this past season to start on the 14th because the 15th was a Sunday. In past years, they have started the season on Monday in this situation. That extra weekend probably killed at least 5000 turkeys. Doesn't seem they would have done that if an immediate cut in the limit was about to happen.

Got the e-mail today and filled it out. Not sure what good it will do, cause just like with deer hunting, sitings are a poor indicator of populations. They didn't even ask how many turkeys i had harvested, but i told them anyway in the comments section.

I filled out the survey as well. I'm also participating in the avid turkey hunter survey. I honestly believe the survey they sent out today is just something to assuage hunter's concern and give them a way to voice any concerns they've had about this season. I go to church with one of the senior biologists at the Dept of Conservation and he tells me they have received numerous calls and emails about this season. I think they understand the weather has been the primary factor this season, but they want to give hunters an outlet. I do not believe and have not heard any indication that this may lead to a change in season dates or limits.

Filled mine out i let them know something has got to be done about coyotes they are reaking havoc on turkeys and especially whitetails .

Predators are the main issue.

Put a little money towards that.

I can tell you folks with very much certainty, since I'm on the turkey committee, that one or two seasons worth of hunter data collection is NOT going to result in a reduced bag limit. There are multiple scenarios being looked at including different bag limits and season structures that are all possibilities. It's not very likely any major changes to anything are expected in the very near future. We are conducting large scale radio telemetry and gps studies statewide to help us understand the role hunter mortality plays on a population level. This study will last a decade. So don't get your panties in a wad and start the government conspiracy stuff prematurely.

Keep in mind. Every one on the turkey committee is deeply passionate about what is best for the resource, because we like to smoke turkeys in the face just as much as y'all do. Balancing hunter expectations, satisfaction, and sound biology is not as easy as y'all try to make it.

Also, this years data is not representative of a normal or average year. Turkeys are nuts this season. Gobbling is way down. Observations are way down. Harvest is way down. It is not due to predators. Something that I'm not going to even try to explain has caused a tremendous change in turkey habits and behavior, and we know the data we collect is not going to be what we would see on average.

Thanks for getting us up to speed matt. Please continue to keep us informed. In your opinion why have many hunters experienced a "down" year this year?

Corn

Come on with it Matt, we need to hear it.

Southwood, there are several theories floating around, none of which do I really subscribe to yet. I think it's a combination of two late winter snow storms, spring arriving 7-10 days later than normal, and it has rained 5-6 days a week for the last several weeks. I personally have a hard time understanding how those factors could result in what so many people have seen, not only in AL, but several other SE states as well.

My primary property that usually produces 4-6 dead birds every season, I have not heard or seen a single gobbler on all year. Not one. I had 7-9 long beards on camera in winter. I've only seen two hens on that property. This same scenario is being repeated in nearly every county statewide. I've been asked by multiple hunters if I think we have lost them to disease. I don't think so. Turkeys were everywhere in the winter. If turkeys died on a large population level in large areas you'd find their remains.

In my opinion some environmental factor has told turkeys it's a good idea to keep quiet this year and break their normal routine. I finally killed my first bird of the year Wednesday morning. I was about to go insane. I've only sat down and called to one bird all year.

Once again, thanks for the insight. Hopefully this year will be just an anomoly. I personally plan on throwing out 40lbs of scratch feed and cracked corn and running a couple cameras after the season and take an inventory to see how many birds are really hanging around.

Gobbling was definitely down for me this year but I still saw a lot of birds and had some great hunts. A lot of people in my area reported a poor hatch last year but we held a huge winter flock of birds and had a ton of little ones too. I also saw several swarms of jakes running around so next year looks promising.

I'm still of firm belief that hunters harvesting gobblers has basically zero effect on turkey populations. Nesting success is far more important in my opinion and that is controlled by factors such as weather, predators, and habitat. There's not much that can be done about the weather, but the other two factors can be managed to an extent.

I did the daily hunter survey this year and recorded all of my hunts, but did not receive the email for this survey. I hope that it helps the state biologists make good decisions for the management of the state's population. I just hope that they remember that our 5 bird limit has been around for years and we continue to boast one of the largest turkey populations in the nation. With that being said, I don't see how they could justify reducing the limit.

This is EXACTLY what happened in TN in 2006 and 2007..... We are still trying to figure out what happens to them. They went silent becuase they died.

Yek, so you are saying that several years ago people reported the same thing in areas of TN, and the birds have still not recovered?

Yep, I went from having hundreds of birds on the places I hunt to having a handful in a couple years. I'm not exaggerating the hundreds either. There was a gobbling bird on every ridge. It happened on all of my properties in the 2 counties I hunted at the time, which was about 5000 acres at the time. I have great habitat, food, low predators, and never found the first carcass. I've been to several meetings with the state where they were asking the public for help. They are still setting up at check stations and getting samples even this year. They didn't leave or someone else would have them, they died and haven't rebounded any where I'm at. There is a 4 county area in southern middle TN where it happened and it has also happened in the north alabama counties that border those TN counties.

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/2015/03/18/twra-studies-decline-turkey-numbers/24980917/

Matt, on a statewide level, how would you rate the nesting success over the past 2 or 3 years?

Same question to you Brandon in the years leading up to the decline in your area

I wonder if closing hunting after noon or shortening the season would make a difference in nest success. I know this year, I have not found a nest, but last year, I found 2 before April 14th, and found 3, 2 seasons ago after April 15th. I haven't been in the woods more than once a week since the first 8 days because of work, but nobody I hunt with has found a nest either. Also, we have almost 5,000 acres, and have only seen 1 jake all season. This past August and September we saw young birds everywhere when filling up deer feeders, but they just vanished. It's very strange.

Nest success can be negatively impacted if gobblers are harvested too soon. Personally, I think we have biological reasoning to shift some of the northern counties in the state back. North AL birds are still in winter flocks when south AL has already gone through spring green up and hens have already started nesting.

One thing to consider about the 5 bird limit. I'm not saying I'm for or against it. I'm in favor of allowing the take of as many as possible without losing hunter satisfaction or negatively impacting the resource. Heck I wish we could kill 10 a season. But obviously that's not very wise. We have more turkey hunters now than we did when the 5 bird limit started. We estimate fewer turkeys. Poult recruitment is declining statewide. If gobblers are being harvested before peak breeding by more hunters in a declining population I invite any of you to help me understand how that's not a negative scenario that will continue the decline. 5 birds may have been fine until we reached a certain threshold, and it may not be sustainable. These are some of the questions we have to answer and it is not easy. I think I've read or discussed nearly every mortality/survival, nest success, habitat use paper ever written on turkeys in the south. Some of these questions we can hopefully answer through the current research.

On our property we saw very few turkeys during deer season. We usually see them every hunt. Spring rolls around and the turkeys are still not there. We went from a great population to very few.

We don't really monitor nest success. We do a statewide poult recruitment survey in the summer to get a poult:hen ratio. It's declining statewide. South AL is still holding pretty close to 2 poults:hen. We like to see it at that level or higher. Other areas of the state are seeing less than 1.5 poults:hen. That is not very good. And it appears a significant percentage of hens are either not nesting at all or losing their first nest and not attempting a second. The radiotelemetry and gps study should help us understand nest success better.

That's good info Matt, thanks. I haven't ever really hunted the northern 1/3 of the state so I have very little input or knowledge of what's going on up there. I hear the complaints and struggles here on aldeer from folks up there but I just haven't seen it where I hunt at all. I guess I have somewhat of a narrow scope of things.

I would like to see them go to the TN dates for the season. Give the turkeys the month of March to get the bulk of their breeding done and then hunt them til the middle of May.

I relate it a lot to habitat management , predators , mother nature . Personally I have heard birds every hunt in 3 different counties and seen a large amount of birds , I also witnessed coyotes surrounding a gobbler on the roost gobbling his head off. Never seen anything like it as a result it took 3 hours to settle him down and get him in gun range .

Birds can be seasonal on your properties in the fall they live on your place in the spring there on your neighbors fresh burn or clover plots .

Blessed, you're correct. Turkeys winter and spring ranges can be more than 15 miles apart. But I've talked to numerous individuals this year who hold turkeys in the spring that are not this year. I would include myself in that category. We have done more planting and management for turkeys than ever before. We have fewer turkeys than ever before. It's not normal to go from killing multiple turkeys on a property to there being no physical evidence of their existence.

Where I hunt, I'm pretty sure the birds are still there, just not as vocal for some reason.

I hunt two properties in Monroe County. One is 1200 acres that I've hunted for 6 springs. Never have had more than a handful of turkeys on it, usually good for 1 or 2 turkeys. I've not heard a gobble on it, saw one this spring. No sign at all. The other is 5500 acres of some of the best turkey hunting/population I've been a part of over the same time frame. Not unusual to hear 5-6 birds from a good vantage point. Very little hunting pressure on it so only 10 or so shot on it a year. Always tons of birds all over it. And they gobbled good. This year only one section of the property has had any real gobbling(about 800 acres of it), and very little sign. Also, the turkeys that do gobble don't start gobbling until good daylight. Just FYI for thought from my part of the world, haha.

Matt, we appreciate all you guys do. Hopefully it is just a cyclical thing and will straighten out in a year or two.
Last year, I hunted 18 mornings and heard 1 turkey gobble (once in the tree and once on the ground) on our 940 acres.
This year has been completely different, as I've heard birds on our land 12 out of 15 mornings. No rhyme or reason for any of it.
(BTW, this hunter mortality deal and turkeys being the problem needs to be looked at. We need to keep as many hunters as we can)

I've seen and heard decent numbers this year. It's been real tough hunting because the ones I've heard have gobbled a time or two and shut down totally. I hunt until 12 at least on most days I go, so they may start back up at some point during the day, but it's not in the mornings.
Notice I said decent numbers. I hardly ever hunted and didn't hear anything, but the 4 and 5 bird mornings were really rare this year. Also, I saw a 2 or 3 day period where gobblers we're going crazy (due to the hens starting to set is my thought) and that was it. Normally there's a two week period where they are waking up alone and committing suicide.

Matt, give us some actual numbers of percentage of hunters who kill a limit, until then discussing a limit reduction is pointless. Specifically with no way to enforce it. Habitat, predators, and possible disease are a much bigger issue to me, until the state presents some actual harvest data and kills per hunter. Until then, dropping the limit is simply a feel good mechanism

I'm going to say somewhere less than 2% kill a 5 bird limit.

Atoler, I have to agree. Matt, I'm sure you are aware and not naive enough to believe that dropping that number will change anything. Surely those working with you aren't either. Once data shows there is a large decline, or if it does, then the best way to drop the amount of turkeys dying due to hunters has to be to shorten the season I would think. Unless they start hiring a lot more of you guys and implement some sort of tagging system that can hold people more accountable, I don't see it changing. I don't know if even reducing the days will make a tremendous impact. There are several folks out there that think if a turkey gobbles, that they ought to hunt him. But I do believe there are less like that than those who would stop at a certain number while season is still in. Y'all have a rough road ahead of y'all with all of this. I wish you guys and gals the best, and hope we get it fixed if it needs fixin.

For those of you who think gobbler harvest doesn't effect the population, what do you think would happen, if AL turned it's hunters loose for three consecutive seasons, in KS with a 5 bird limit. Serious question. I can already tell you the outcome would be devastating.

I think that AL's very liberal bag limit has provided the wrong perception to several generations of hunters who have come to think it doesn't matter. Kill as many as you want. Heck we have the highest population of any state in the country with the highest bag. Apparently we have done a great job convincing people that bag limits don't matter. We had a buck per day every day of the season for decades. Was that a good management practice? As populations and hunter desires change so will the regulations.

I do fully agree that the best way to change anything, if it's changed at all, is to push the season back or decrease the length.

According to the survey the last several years average harvest per hunter has remained at close to one per season. I don't have the information in front of me, but I promise to my name that I'm going to find out what percentage of people surveyed killed a limit. And that's all it will be. Only those surveyed. Also, I'd bet there are a lot of hunters you could add to the category if you included anyone who took 3 or more turkeys per year.

I know hunting pressure is far more than it used to be. Heck private land, IMO, is probably hunted harder than most public land, from what I have seen lately. I can drive around on private land and see more hunters than I'll check on a WMA hunt.

Keep another thing in mind. North AL is not what south AL is. Land is divided and broken into smaller ownerships, more development and disturbance, and a higher population of people. You south AL boys who are hunting several thousand contiguous acres have to realize that don't exist up here near as frequently as down there.

I don't think a 3 bird limit would change anything. Most hunters that can kill a limit will not stop at the limit. Especially if your only required to write it on a piece of paper.

I think you are very close with that estimate.

I may be the one Matt is referring to with the conspiracy talk, but when you know the state has that info and they flatly refuse to release it, well, it makes me wonder. If only 2% kill a limit, then it doesn't take a genius to realize that changing it will have no effect on the turkey population.

Matt, thanks for getting on here and posting. I would be the first to say that if there are indeed areas of the state when most of the gobblers are killed before the hens are bred, and that results in hens not being bred, then something needs to be done. I have never hunted in such a place myself, but maybe they do exist in the state. But cutting the state limit would do nothing to help those places. The ONLY way to help those places is to shorten the season there, and I'd sure be in favor of shortening it in those areas if hens are not being bred due to a lack of available gobblers.

I guess I have been truly blessed this season, but I heard more gobbling than normal and had the best season I've had in several years. I hunted Perry, Coosa, and Tallapoosa counties and the turkey population is still very good in all the areas I hunted. I limited out on 4/2, and probably could have sooner if I had tried harder. I called one in for my uncle to kill Tuesday morning and we heard 3 other turkeys gobble that morning; one probably gobbled 100 times. Surefire is hunting at my farm this weekend and heard one gobble on the roost this afternoon. I predict that one will die in the morning. If he does, it will just mean there is one less gobbler on the place; it won't affect the nesting success of the hens at all.

I'm glad to hear that no significant changes are planned anytime soon. My turkey hunting career is drawing to an end, but I still would hate to see the AL system changed because of political reasons when the system we have has worked so well for at least 50 years. A generous season and limit leads to turkeys being a valued resource. Low limits lead to them being hated by the farmers.

Matt, my statement really has nothing to do with how gobbler harvest affects the overall population. My point was that dropping the limit to 3 probably will have no impact on the scope of birds killed. But If you and the state want to push a lower limit, fine. Just present facts on how many people actually kill more than that as it stands. That is my biggest issue. Of course, killing gobblers does not help the population. Does it hurt it significantly? I don't think so, not in most cases. But if you could present a valid argument, I would certainly listen.

In central and north Alabama, I've seen a decline in the number of gobbling birds in the last few years. Simply taking public land as an example, south Alabama wmas have been much much easier for me to kill a bird on in the last few years. I think it is possible we have a big problem coming in the next few years, similar to what parts of Tennessee are experiencing. I just don't buy that reducing the limit by a bird or two will have a great impact.

You posted while I was typing, and I was gonna drop out of the thread and leave it at what I said. But some of your illustrations just don't seem valid to me. The open land of KS, combined with incredibly stupid birds, is nothing like hunting in AL. What would be the results of a 5 bird limit there? Well, first, to compare it to AL you would need to eliminate the fall season that allows hunters to kill several of either sex. After that, I expect a pretty good % of the mature gobblers would get killed. But since the AL jake harvest is extremely low, I'd think those AL hunters would pass on the KS jakes too and there would be plenty of 2 year old gobblers around the next season. With no fall season, and a 5 bird spring season, I doubt KS would be a whole lot different than it is now, even considering how much easier their turkeys are to kill.

I also don't think your comparison to the one a day buck limit is at all valid. One buck can breed only a very limited number of does, so the buck-doe ratio needs to be reasonable to get the does bred. One gobbler can breed 20 hens in a day, and then be ready for 20 more the next day. It takes very few gobblers to breed the hens. You know that; why would you use such an illustration?

I agree that shortening the season in places where its needed is the way to control harvest, and I agree that north AL is not south and central AL. Make whatever regs you need for north AL to protect the flock; I don't hunt there so it won't bother me. But please don't penalize those who have worked hard to have turkeys, and have them, just because an area 200 miles away is having problems.

Thanks again for posting here!

I'm going to bed PCP.

I wasn't trying to compare turkey and deer management as being similar. Only trying to make a point that just because we've done a particular thing one way forever doesn't mean it was the best thing to do

More later. When I wake up I'm sure I'll have to spend most of Saturday replying.

We have more gobblers now than we have ever had. We had at least 21 gobblers on 1500 acres that we knew of, sightings and cam pics. We also have more hens than we have ever had. That being said, it has been a ruff season. We have heard a lot of gobbling. But calling up and killing them has ben tuff. Most of the time we have been working birds hens go to them and they shut down. Killed my second bird of the season yesterday and there were two gobblers together. Killed my first bird the second day of season (North Bama) and there were two gobblers together. We had them in the fall and we have had them in the spring but they have moved off our property a lot. Maybe May will not be so wet and they will have a good hatch.

Go on to bed and sleep well!

I'll be around tomorrow, and then plan to be gone for 2 weeks, so y'all can reduce the limit while I'm gone and I won't even be around to complain.

And thanks for promising to get the data on # of limits from the hunter survey. I don't quite follow you when you said this:

>>>I promise to my name that I'm going to find out what percentage of people surveyed killed a limit. And that's all it will be. Only those surveyed. Also, I'd bet there are a lot of hunters you could add to the category if you included anyone who took 3 or more turkeys per year.<<<

The number of limits killed in the state can indeed be determined by the hunter survey, within the limits of the study, of course. And it should be relatively easy to determine the number that also killed 4, and thus figure out how many turkeys a reduction in limit to 3 would theoretically "save."

The study put out by your department says this:

>>>A measure of the degree of the uncertainty or “sampling error” associated with each estimate
can be determined by analysis of the variability in the survey data. The statistical term for this
measure is the “standard error” of the estimate. Standard errors tend to vary with the
magnitude of their estimates and are difficult to use for general comparison of the level of
uncertainty among estimates. A better index for judging the level of uncertainty is the relative
standard error, i.e., the ratio of the standard error over the estimate. Relative standard errors,
expressed on a percent basis, are provided in the tables along with the estimates and standard
errors for this survey. An estimate with a low percent standard error is more reliable and has
less uncertainty associated with it. Estimates with a percentage standard error less than 15%
are reliable enough to be useful in making management decisions.<<<

The standard error for the total state turkey harvest was 7.2%. I believe that the survey will give us an estimate of the number of limits in the state that will be a worthwhile number that is scientifically valid. It might be off by up to 7.2%, but that could mean that the survey says 100 limits were taken when the actual number is 107. Of course, I realize its not quite that simple, but that's close to being an accurate explanation. Whatever the number is, it will give us a better idea of how much real effect the 5 bird limit has on the turkeys.

I still don't think the folks above you will let you post the number. Prove me wrong.

Weather and nesting success was bad the last couple years.

I think that is a large part of the problem as well. Matt, I asked earlier, but would you agree with that statement?

It doesn't take but just a couple of poor hatches to really take a toll on the turkey population. I was fortunate enough to hunt a MS River club between the levees for 6 years while I was in school at Ole Miss. Just during that short period I was able to see the cyclical nature of turkey populations in full effect as the result of hatch success. Those confined clubs are a microcosm of the general population in my opinion except they are at an even higher risk because of the extremely limited turkey habitat in the MS Delta. Matt if you all haven't done any studies of those clubs, I think it would be interesting for you all.

The first two years I hunted the place were unbelievable. You would hear about 10 birds a morning and there were turkeys everywhere. That second spring though the MS River flooded and remained flooded for an extended period. The hatch was very poor that spring. The next spring was still pretty decent numbers of birds, but we saw zero jakes all year. Hunting continued as normal that year, and several gobblers were killed. Then that spring the River flooded again for the second consecutive year, and the hatch was very poor again.

That next spring bird numbers were awful. You would only hear 1 or 2 birds in the mornings and no jakes again. The river flooded early that year and they called off the season on the club. It actually did recede a little earlier that year and there was some nesting success. The next year was terrible again with only one or two gobbling birds but there were some jakes there gobbling as well.

The next spring was much better with decent numbers of gobbling birds but obviously they were all 2 year olds. The river did not flood that spring so they had another great hatch and by the following year things were quickly getting back close to normal.

There's a great book about these MS River clubs called East of the Slash by Wade Wineman. It covers some of the population fluctuations and how quickly the birds are able to rebound. It's definitely worth a read. I personally think that what we are experiencing has more to do with poor hatches and awful weather this spring than a problem with our limit. It sounds like the northern 1/3 of the state may be a different scenario, but I believe that to be true for the rest of the state.

Predators play a huge roll.

Last time I checked everything loves turkey meat except a vegetarian.

I believe gobbler harvest affects population. I've hunted places where this has taken place. I seriously doubt the State knows how many people kill the limit every year. Matt good luck with the research.

Great post crenshaw. I have a buddy that hunted turkey hunted Tara wildlife on the Mississippi river several years ago and he said it was amazing. After the great flood they shutdown all turkey hunting on tara,9000 acres, and still didn't offer turkey hunts for this spring. This is copied from Tara's website

"With poor nesting conditions due to high water in 2008 through 2011, we have had to postpone hunting until Turkey numbers are able to recover. We will not offer turkey hunts in 2015."

I hunted a place in North Bama a few years ago that was covered up in turkeys then it went south and by that I mean BAD! Went from killing 4-5 every year to being lucky to hear 1 or 2 a season. That was about 8 or 9 years ago. Then there was a good hatch or two and it got back to normal. Everyone was killing 3 and 4 year old birds with no two year old birds being killed for a couple years. If it is bad where you are hunting it will turn around. Enjoy the good years!

Ever heard the saying about turkey hunting?

When it's good it's GOOD, but when it's bad it's BAAAAAD!

Doing well PCP, but I couldn't stand it anymore

Matt. If adult gobbler harvest makes such a difference to the population, what do YOU think would happen to our turkey population if we went to a 6 bird, 7 bird, or 10 bird limit in Alabama. I would guess very little, but that is pure speculation. What would happen in KS?, I would guess they would suffer pretty bad the first year or 2 and gobbling would be effected for a couple years but the OVERALL POPULATION would not go down significantly because the hens would all be bred and continue to produce poults. Gobblers would eventually wise up and become as hard to hunt as AL birds and the State would try to put a new limit on them.

The reason hunting damaged populations in the past was because of shooting over bait, flock shooting and indiscriminate killing of hens poults, jakes and gobblers during Spring, summer, fall and winter. Not the regulated seasons we have now.



That is NOT the perception that the limit gives. Its called a limit because it gives the perception that there is and should be a limit. It gives the perception that we should limit our harvest to 5 because..... um, well, Im not sure why but Charles Kelly and Corky thought it was a good idea to reduce it from 6.

Trying to equate it to a daily limit of a buck a day is a weak argument. However, the older I get the more I agree with 49r and Corky on limits.

About time you joined in, gobbler! If you just sit back and watch, you are gonna wake up one day and find we have a one bird limit and you have to enter a lottery to see which 5 days you can hunt.

Ain't it amazing how easily you can tell the MSU grads from the AU grads in these threads? Wonder why that is? You got any theories?

Its so easy for someone to sit at there desk and assume this and that on how many turkeys they are and make up 100% fake facts about turkeys/deer.

PCP you are right.

Dont have the answers to the questions asked,, but i hunt south bama national forest and the last 3 seasons have been awesome for hearing numbers of gobblers and for how many jakes and hens im seeing throughout the broad area i hunt.. This year definitely being one of the better for jake numbers and adult gobblers being heard and taken.. And I can promise there is no shortage of hunters here.. And still having a 5 bird limit.. I can honestly say through my observations that we have definitely had great hatches the last 2 years with turkey numbers up more than 10 years ago.. Dont care what any biologist says about this area.. This is from my own footwork and observations..and i put in ALOT OF TIME on the national forest

I can have a good debate with people who disagree with me biologically but this strikes a nerve. You obviously have no idea what biologists do. Nobody in this thread sits behind a desk and guesses anything or makes up 100% fake facts. I spend way more time in the field than in an air conditioned room. And scientific formulas and statistics developed in an air conditioned room are factual when real data collected in the field is used.


Gobbler, I'm not trying to say we are hunting turkeys back to being extirpated like the unregulated periods. That would be pretty foolish thinking, and it's not going to happen. Like I told PCP, my liking the turkey limit to the deer is ONLY an example of something the state did that wasn't the best for the resource. I hope y'all all know I'm competent enough to understand managing deer and turkey is not even remotely similar. Their biology, breeding, and behavior are very different.

For both PCP and Gobbler, what would you think if AU(not MSState), since you like throwing that in there, provided a scenario through a mathematical formula that included season lengths, different bags, real hunter mortality, real poult recruitment, real incidental hen harvest, real natural mortality, real hunter satisfaction, and predicted the population growth or decline over decades for each scenario, AND the results that were scientifically predicted suggested that a change in bag limits or season structure was needed? I throw in the term real data, meaning it was collected in AL by real hunters and biologists who spend time in the real world. (Bankhead that's for you).

Now what if the data suggested no change was needed? Yay!!

For some reason y'all have the idea that the state wants to reduce the limit. I'm not sure where y'all have concluded that. We are only conducting the research to see IF it makes a difference and is needed. I've already said I'm for killing as many as possible if it's sustainable. I'm only asking questions that need to be asked, and doing the research answers them.

Gobbler you do understand I hope, of all people, that what occurs in central and south AL is not what occurs in north AL. Do you see TN or North Carolina opening up there seasons in March?

Mitchell Marks, who recently retired, had data for several north AL counties for decades on the changes in season timing and the result to the turkey populations. Each time season was opened in the month of March, the result was an immediate drop in population, to the point of shutting seasons down for years to allow recovery. It was a direct result of season length and timing. People were over harvesting gobblers while they were still in winter flocks. Since the season has been pushed back to April we haven't seen that problem. Hopefully we will get some breeding data for north AL soon and we will know when the peak breeding times are up here. I'm assuming now it's not what you're seeing down there.

Also, since the state agency has been given the task of managing the resource for the benefit of all users, what if a majority of hunters were in favor of a reduced bag? I've talked to far more in north AL that are in favor than the opposite. That is a fact. I've also talked to more in south AL who are opposed. So there are regional differences.

Gobbler, I have all the papers saved on my agency computer which is not with me right now. Even if it was I'm not going to spend all day pasting PDF papers on ALdeer. I ain't got time for that.

So if that data was so clear, why do we not have split seasons already? If Mitchell was/is so respected for his turkey work and the info/data clearly shows something so biologically detrimental that the population was affected by a mid-March opening, then WTH?

Someone in DCNR blunted efforts to change this to the biological benefit of the birds and hunters? Someone didn't want to hear it and wanted to just keep status quo? If Mitchell's info was so clear cut then that's not conjecture or hyperbole or anecdotal, right?

Clem, we do have split seasons.

Well, of course we do. Duh. That was about as big of a major league brain fart as I've had in a long time.

It's ok. It is Monday.

I also just made a pot of coffee and forgot to put the carafe under the dripper, then walked outside. Came in to find six cups of coffee spreading along the kitchen counter.

Apparently I need to shut myself up in a rubber room today.

I hunt pretty hard, not like some of the guys on here but average 3-4 days a week. This season has been rough on me. I have yet to work a bird on the ground gobbling. I have only killed one and he came in silent but full sprint across a pasture. I hear a few birds in the morning on roost and then they shut up. One spot is only 200 acres in the middle of 5k acres in Tusc and Greene county with only 3 guys hunting the 5k acres. The most birds I have heard gobbling on my property and theirs is 3 at one time. Thats messed up. I have more land in Perry county that I am the only guy that hunts and I have not heard a single bird gobble even though I have pictures of strutters in the fields.

I Have never killed more than 3 birds in Alabama. Just because the former club I was in that was the rule and I just carried it over with me everywhere else. I will call birds for other people, but I wouldn't mind at all if the limit got changed to 3-4 birds.

I just know it should get interesting if the same thing happens next yr too.

Gobbler, I found time for you.

Greater illegal hen mortality has been associated with earlier opening dates (Normal et al. 2001), and substantial illegal hen mortality has occurred in areas when spring turkey season coincided with peak breeding (Kimmel and Kurzejeski 1985).

Other studies have shown considerable hen mortality as it relates to earlier opening dates (Wright and Speake 1975, Williams and Austin 1988, Davis et all 1995).

Mean nest incubation initiation is April 20-30 for south and central Al and as late as May 1-7 for north Al (Whitaker 2013). Meaning laying began approximately two weeks earlier.

On Thomas WMA in 1980, Everett determined average hatch as May 22-28, and ranged from May 1-June 24.

Peak gobbling periods in Clarke Co as determined by Davis in 1977 were April 5 and April 25. If peak gobbling coincides with breakup of winter flocks (first peak) and nest initiation (second), and that occurs in early April and late April in south AL, then it is certainly later in north AL.

Gardner found that the earliest hatch date was May 6 and 80% of poults hatched the last three weeks of may.

Metzler found that in North AL peak hatch occurred the first week of June.

I can go on and on and on.

According to SEAFWA, they claim several researchers have found that opening of spring season prior to initiation of nesting can lead to reduced recruitment through direct mortality of female wild turkeys.

Also, intensive male turkey harvest during spring could result in decreased recruitment if it occurs prior to nest initiation and has resulted in low male turkey abundance or disturbed breeding activity.

How's that Bankhead? Am I just making facts up in an office, because you know that's what all biologist do right?

Go read Chamberlains Effects of Variable Spring Harvest Regimes on Annual Survival and Recovery Rates of Male Wild Turkeys in Southeast Louisiana, 2012.

Seems like to me people would be glad to have a state agency that's trying to lead in efforts of sound management, and get on top of a problem to correct it instead of falling behind and hitting the panic button once something catastrophic happens. Facts are that a lot of areas are experiencing a decline and poult recruitment is low and getting lower. Trying to figure out why and what to do about it is what we do.

Another observation of mine is the ones who seem to have the biggest problem with change are the ones happily killing their limit each season, not experiencing a decline, and are determined to do it their way regardless of what the research indicates, and with no regard for the resource.

I have hunted the same land (Mobile County) for several years. We have roughly 300 acres with a mix of dairy pastures and creek bottoms on 3 of 4 sides. Here is what I have witnessed:

•As recently as 3 years ago, it was not uncommon to see winter flocks of over 100 birds on any given day of deer season.

•Last year, the largest winter flock I saw had 30-40 birds in it.

•This year, the most seen at one time was around a dozen.

•3 years ago, I would stand on a hilltop next to a pasture and hear gobbling every time I went. They may not be on us, but I heard birds.

•Last year in those same spots I heard occasional gobbling.

•This year I heard a total of 1 bird gobble, and he was not gobbling on his own. I saw him in the pasture, called to him, and was able to get a response gobble out of him. He died that day.

Thanks for the info, Matt.

If i get one a year i am happy i dont need to kill 5 , i understand some people live for it and i have no problem with it . I feel like predators are more detremental to lost turkey population than hunters are , i know if you kill 5 well thats 5 less than you had but God provides enough wildlife to replace what we harvest but we do need to manage what we have .
I personally am worried more about coyotes i would rather find more ways to get rid of them than anything else , they are a big problem and kill way more deer and turkey than people realize .

Matt Brock, thanks for all that you do. We can argue all we want, but having biologists who care about wildlife and work to satisfy both environmental and recreational needs is truly great. Thanks for all that you do. I for one am curious if turkey numbers or poult recruitment has dropped much in East/central AL. I did not see nearly as many birds during deer season this year, but have seen/heard more than ever this spring. Thanks.

Amen. Agree 1000%.

Everybody wants to throw coyotes under the bus, but they are nowhere near the top of the list on adult or poult mortality. Do they catch turkeys? Yes. Do they get as many as raccoons, opossums, skunks, bobcats, and feral domestic dogs? Not according to what we know.

Yet few folks want to truly commit to a hardcore year-round trapping program for all predators including hogs for a variety of reasons, including "we don't want anyone on our property" and "we like to shoot a hog now and then during deer season."

A somehwhat related side topic question, is it true that less than 50% of turkey eggs actually hatch, then around 80% die after the first two weeks? Because if that's true, it's a wonder I ever see a wild turkey!

Matt I didn't throw this at you and I'm sorry you took it that way. Its the according to folks and the might and could be people. I do know this,predators are a big problem and I'll always preach that. The best gobblin bird I been on back and forth throughout the season got spooked off yesterday morning. 2 coyotes came running/sneaking up on me right when I had him bout ready to pull the trigger. 1 of those yotes is in bad shape from 6s right in the face. Maybe it will kill him. Again, didn't mean to make it sound like you was at fault in any. You do your part because you care for wildlife and resources.

Sorry Bankhead. I took it that way. I apologize.

First off, Matt, no offfence intended. I know you and you do as good a job as any Bio out there, so not picking on you in particular. As a fellow biologist, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and commitment.

To answer your first scenario, I am NOT and never have been a fan of modelling to set limits, etc. I think the current crop of biologists, AND professors teaching them, rely entirely too much on computers to make their decisions. That is what is leading to the current Global Warming debates - Modelling. I was taught by the Dan Speakes, Lovett Williams, George Hurst, Keith Causeys of the wildlife research world. Field biologists and researchers who knew the woods and wildlife. The current computer modelling craze would and is nauseating. So, I would NOT be much in favor of a computer model to tell me when the season should start and finish and how many each person should kill. Too many variables and unknowns to ever put in a computer program.



The majority of hunters do not have the educational background to make decisions on bag limits and season lengths. Individual anecdotal data collection results in stupid regulations. Also too many diversified interests, that is why we have a game and fish division.



Those numbers are close to what I threw out, maybe a little later. I don't have a problem with shifting dates if it makes sense. Throwing out hen mortality with gobbler limits and season timing is a totally different scenario that we didn't talk about. Not part of setting gobbler limits if you ask me.



This discussion is NOT a sky is falling discussion or that the State IS going to reduce the bag limit. It is simply a debate on whether reducing the bag limit of gobblers makes sense. Everyone is throwing out their opinion - kinda like a debate.... hmmmm

I've often wondered why there isn't a later season for Birmingham north. Seasons like this year peak breeding is in April in my opinion. I appreciate all you state guys do, I just feel like a blanket limit reduction is probably the least effective route. Like I said earlier, I could get behind a limit reduction if there were some kind of facts presented to support it. Heck, I noticed on Hollins the other day that they burned a huge portion just recently. What the hell are they thinking? I'd like for everyone to be on the same page. Maybe allow some predator hunting during the summer on wmas?

Atoler, this is NOT to pick on you either but your comment makes my point beautifully! They were thinking that they would practice excellent habitat management. Matt, if the hunting public were made up of Atolers, we would ban burning for turkeys! That is why EDUCATION, not regulation is the best route.

You think that burning a thousand acres of prime select cut nesting habitat in mid April is a good idea?? Really???? I love burning. I don't like for it to be done in the middle of nesting time

They burned a huge chunk, possibly more than a thousand acres. It was all select cut mixed woods that looked to have been burned two seasons ago. Undergrowth was perfect for nesting pre burn. And it was still smoking last weekend......

Ever watch Troy Ruiz kill a gobbler and you can see the burn still smoldering in the background , thats a Primos hunt .

You are missing the point. Fresh burns are great turkey habitat. Burning a few dozen turkey nests is not real great though

I know what you meant i was just throwing that in there

"Seems like to me people would be glad to have a state agency that's trying to lead in efforts of sound management, and get on top of a problem to correct it instead of falling behind and hitting the panic button once something catastrophic happens."

I am, and think most of the others on here are as well. I went to here Joel's presentation about this project at Dadeville in March. It was an enjoyable, informative presentation. Thanks for what you've shared here.

Good! People that don't have deer bitched and got a restriction so by God lets restrict turkeys too. Hell Yeah, bring it. I ain't got any turkeys anyway so it would tickle the hell outa me.

Ya because that's exactly what people are doing. Its seems like to me hunters are reporting to the biologist what they are seeing and hearing in the field and the biologist are studying the issue before they make any recommendations. Soinds like the right way to do it.

In a word, Yes! Which is why I don't think succumbing to public pressure is a good idea from the educated and experienced Biologists at the State agency that makes hunting regulations. They have dedicated both their education dollars and their career choices and lives to natural resource and wildlife management - something VERY FEW hunters or other public participants have done! Most also read every research paper on their subject of interest every chance they get, also something most public resource users rarely do.

We burned around 700 acres of this place last Thu and Fri. Private hunting land that is on a 3-4 year burn rotation and has had MOST burns in the last 10 years being April and May burns. Their turkey population has skyrocketed based on these recommendations. I would rather turkey hunt this place than pretty much every other place in Alabama that I know of.

How many turkey nests did we burn up? I don't know but quite a few I am sure!

Link is a video - can't figure how to post it right! [img]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p261/gobbler06/th_IMG_0755_zpsxcvcdqxu.mp4[/img]

So answer me this, how in all of your research papers does it support destroying nests? In an ideal world, would you not burn during February or later? I realize that the time of year and weather is key, but you would have a very hard time convincing me that destroying a whole bunch of nests to create better habitat is the best option.

I'm assuming you are advocating habitat improvement over nesting success. I'm curious how you come to this conclusion? How do you know it is not hurting the population but creating such good habitat that it draws from the surrounding properties?

I would assume because most hens would be bred again and nest again.........and surviving poults having a better habitat for nutritional needs their first several months.

link me a copy!

An educated man

Sacrificing a little in the short-term for the benefit of the long-term.

so.... you are saying that hens being bred again would have the same success as they would have before the initial destruction? Because the habitat can be created before most of the nesting takes place.....

Gobbler, I'm not saying you are wrong, obviously you are much more studied on the scientific end of things than I am. But...I am a very logical person, so I'm inviting you to use a logical argument or present facts that disprove me.

I don't think they even have to be bred again to make another nest. I would have some concern tho that a hen that was incubating eggs this time of year might be hesitant to leave her nest to the point that she might be in danger from the smoke and fire herself.

Matt, thanks for all the info and for taking time to post on aldeer. I do appreciate it, and don't forget that I asked you to be my Commissioner when I get elected governor.

I guess this coulda been directed at somebody else, but I seem to be the most likely suspect:

>>>Another observation of mine is the ones who seem to have the biggest problem with change are the ones happily killing their limit each season, not experiencing a decline, and are determined to do it their way regardless of what the research indicates, and with no regard for the resource. <<<

I will plead guilty to trying to kill my limit, and we haven't had a decline on my properties. But I am certainly not against change when research indicates we need it. I had heard of some of the studies you mentioned, but as gobbler said, it looks like a change in the starting date of the season would address those issues, not a change in the limit. I can remember when the season was March 20-April 25 every year, and they still had a 5 bird limit. As they gradually increased the season, it didn't seem to impact the population.

IF research could somehow prove that a reduction in the limit was truly needed to protect the population, then I would certainly be for it. But if we are going to even have a discussion on reducing the limit for a research based reason, it appears to me that the first thing we all need to know is how many limits are killed. The fact that the state won't release that figure is concerning to me, and I think you can see why. They sure didn't mind publicizing the number of hunters that were killing more than 3 bucks when we had that debate. I don't remember the numbers used, but they were quoted often on this site.

But the part about having "no regard for the resource" bothers me indeed. I have been a strong advocate for the wild turkey all of my adult life. I have vigorously opposed the killing of hens, and was willing to support the protection on jakes before gobbler convinced me it was a bad idea. I've opposed doing away with daily limits because I think it leads to massacres of bachelor flocks in the early season. All of this was just talk, and probably worthless as far as protecting any turkeys.

But I can claim to have done a lot of habitat improvement to actually produce more turkeys. That does benefit me, but it also benefits all my neighbors. I doubt there are many amateur turkey managers who spend as large a % of their time and money to benefit turkeys. And I've always tried to share what I've learned with others so they can do the same. I don't think the "no regard for the resource" is deserved.

I'm not against change when it's needed. I just think it oughta be change that actually accomplishes something. I hope the committee will make sure that any changes they propose are truly needed and proven to work.

A good evening to all! I am in Cheyenne, OK; hoping to go out tomorrow and rape and pillage their resources.

Here's something that hasn't been touched on very much in this thread.........weather. Alabama has had 2-3 rough winters and to add insult to injury in the turkey world.........at least the last two years the early summer months have been cooler and very rainy. Not a great scenario for poult survival. What region of the the state is coldest on any given winter/spring day? Which region seems to have folks experiencing lower numbers?

The predator issue can't be overlooked in my book. Less folks trapping for a couple of decades and a coyote population rising..........more predation.


And one more thing.......for any population:

Remember, don't kill but one per day because it's bad for the turkeys.

I would say this. Would it be better, in most cases, to get your burning done before April? ... yes, in most cases. Growing season burns have different effects on the habitat and woody vegetation as well as insect populations. Sometimes burning in the growing season is what the doctor ordered and sacrificing a few turkey nests does little damage in the grand scheme of things. I would guess that one or 2 raccoons and a coopers hawk on this property destroyed more turkey nests and poults on the place than our 700 acre burn. However 2 raccoons and a coopers hawk didn't make any better habitat, less dense vegetation, more growing, lush vegetation or more insects to help turkey poults or keep the nesting habitat in good order for next year!

One of our problems is we can't burn all our properties in the winter either and we have learned the benefits of growing season burns. Read this:
http://www.talltimbers.org/images/pubs/FireBreedingBirdsBooklet-small.pdf

Gobbler & Matt,

Since you both are reading this and both have what I would consider a wealth of knowledge on turkey biology, are yall familar with the Holmes County, FL population crash several years ago? What was the verdict there? Over hunting, disease, flooding, a combination of several factors?

Everytime I hear of the the south central Tennessee turkey population decrease I think of Holmes County.

I only had time to skim the article, I'll try to read it in full later. I understand the problem from your standpoint. You only have so many good burning days, and a whole lot of places to burn. I still don't particularly agree that it was beneficial, specifically in the example I was giving.

The ability of hens to re-nest has been proven time after time. I would rather do a habitat improvement regardless of the time of year it gets done. Destroying a few nests will be negated by the amount of birds you'll draw from surrounding areas. Sometimes a warm season fire is needed to knockout the undesired hardwoods in your timber stand. We have a 40 acre stand of thinned pines that used to hold birds but the sweetgums are so thick now that the birds have moved elsewhere. I wish they'd light it up now. The February burn they did 2 years ago only made them come back thicker.

An aerial application of Arsenal would do the trick, as well.

As I said, in my example, it was a beautiful piece of habitat prior to the most recent burning. Select cut mixed woods with 1' tall green vegetation through it. If the habitat really needed it, I could see making it happen regardless, but as it stood, it struck me as a big screwup

Not anywhere close. It would kill the gum (and every big oak on the property), but would do nothing for the habitat, thin the vegetation, stimulate forb, grass, and legume production, scarify seeds lying dormant in the soil, expose mineral soil, create good brood habitat, encourage insect production, make the vegetation open enough for poults to walk, remove dead thatch, etc........ Plus it would cost as much as 5 of our burns, maybe 15-20 years worth.

I bet if I saw it I would think it is a beautiful piece of habitat right now

I know it cost more. It would, however, take care of the sweetgums in the thinned pine plantation. I haven't seen many big oaks in thinned pine plantations, anyway.

I just had the Vikings intro music play in my head and pictured Preacher with a Norse battle-ax swinging it into hoards of OK longbeards....

Personally turkey hunting to me is like crack to a drugie it is something that causes me to go without sleep, food and other things I have a problem and I admit it. I've yet to find a club or piece of private land that can support my habit two years in a roll without giving a year or so to recover. I'm trying to jump around and kill one here and there to keep from over harvesting but its hard to leave a gobbling turkey alone. This is just from my experince may not be your problem in your area.

You hit that right. Great post. If you got it then you can't help it. Turkeys are worse than any drug you can name.

Matt:
As much as I would like to read these articles, I can't look them up with only the authors last name and year. Can you get me any closer? I am interested in these research papers.



BTW I did not kill my limit this year and don't expect to!

Gobbler, PM me your email and I'll send them to you as PDFs.

Matt,
Have you seen this article by any chance? If you had, what did you think about it overall? Not looking to argue a point one way or the other. Really like seeing both sides.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/file-storage.DEP...sertation-1.pdf

I get on here quite a bit, but don't post much. I hunt in Alabama until our season opens up back home. The public land in Alabama is leaps and bounds ahead compared to the public land in Arkansas. Wanted to let you know how much I appreciate seeing you post on here. It is not possible to please everyone and never will be. But you have no idea how much more the sportsmen in Alabama and everywhere else for that matter, respect you to take fire on a public forum.

Interesting article - HUGE home ranges! Not as much meat in the "conclusions" as I was hoping based on the title!

I finally got asked to do the survey, first time ever. I filled it out to the best of my knowledge, and typed a long comment about what I think would help out.

I too, like Yekrut, have been seeing the decline in north Alabama and southern Tennessee since 2007. From 2007-2009 it went from good to terrible. Now I do think that in Limestone county it is better than 5 years ago, but still not as good as ten plus years ago. Southern middle Tennessee has gotten worse each year. And I think next year will be worse. I simply do not see enough hens to believe that there are enough hens to make a good hatch. I hope it gets better.

Amen. I've proven it way too many times. If you take the raccoon, bobcat, and coyotes off of a property, you'll see a turkey explosion.

I think a little fire to the thousands of acres of new cutovers would help also.

Atleast some agree with me on predators. Those few days from hatching to becoming wise poults will do nothing except freeze and hope they are not eaten up like popcorn when trouble arises.