Wondering What Happening to all the Ducks?

Listen to this podcast with Bryan Cohen with cohen wildlife labs. He dropped some bombs of knowledge on this one.

https://doghousepod.com/

Man that was informative. Pretty cool that several of the refuges he mentioned are 30 min from my house. Definitely makes sense that to much pressure changes their patterns. Thanks for posting

We’ve been saying pressure is the problem for years. Ducks don’t want to die is true. The thing I’m struggling with is how far “do they leave to”
I struggle with that little of movement

Even back ni. The late 80s early 90s hi bit clubs in arkie and resting ponds on the property. Too much money and willing to pay for fewer killings ducks

They mentioned we are our own worst enemies.

Was eye opening hearing how far the ducks actually move and how weather just stirs the pot. Can’t argue with the data though. I’d be interested in seeing multiple data sets from each flyway over a couple years. Pressure is pressures and nature wants to survive.

Except these ducks are partially not wild. I was blown away by a podcast I heard recently (on MeatEater I think) where they genetically tested ducks killed in the wild and a huge percentage are from captive breeding stock. Think city park ducks.

These ducks don’t even know to migrate south, they’ll just tear off in random directions. It’s all because these huge hunting clubs release ducks and then they breed in the wild.

The birds had actually even physically adapted to compete for grain (from a farmer’s bag) versus wild forage. In terms of beak appearance etc.

Yall should listen to that episode. I was amazed at the information.

I’ll definitely look for that. Makes sense with all the money to be made as an “outfitter”.

Back in the mid 90s I looked at releasing mallards and even asked another farmer so our ducks would trade back and forth. The amount of money required got to be substantial and nixed that plan. Come to find out there were numerous others doing the same but simply thru-out 2-3000 ducklings without protection and just a little food. I see these leftover ducks around the shoals year around now. They’re on the lakes and rivers and even the creeks. They’re like those resident geese that were released back in the early 90s.

They don’t leave.

There was a hen mallard at Byers farm with a gps tracker. She’d leave out at daylight and fly to place to spend her days. Returning after shooting hours and feeding at night.

At the club in arkie there’s a pit that is close to the refuge. Ducks come in hard after shooting time and spend the night. When we’d come in the next morning thousands upon thousands would leave out for the refuge. We had a flooded cornfield a few years back and it was an afternoon place. Ducks would leave out at first light. We would kill ducks in the afternoon in the last hour of shooting time.

Another thing that I’ve seen first hand. Here I. The shoals area the shear number of duck hunters have increased tenfold. Back in the 80 and early 90s just a handful except those in Leighton and they played on their own holes so not really in the mix. The river was a great loading are for ducks during the day. You could see them from the Trace bridge just out there loafing by the thousands. Out good friend being a mussel diver was out there daily and could get a good report.

These days there is absolutely is no ready are for them. If they’re in the river boats are constantly running them up for hunters in layout boats or shorelines. And then there’s those that go to blasting away at them as they run their boats hard at them.
That will run the ducks out of the area.

Also we used to hunt til 9-10 at the latest but for the most part be done by 8 or earlier. The hole was left alone for the rest of the day. Not no more. With larger limited and longer season folks stay out all day. Providing constant pressure no wonder they leave.

I’ve always stated we lost our ducks when the waterway opened but it was more likely just try e timing of increases limits and shear numbers of hunters increasing

If you don’t think it’s popular just look at the clothing companies and their prices. Matter of fact like Mack’s Prairie Wings used to be a hole in the wall outdoor shop. I’ve not been to the new location and probably not not ever.

Greed is both a good and bad thing and duck hunting knows it well.

I think the changes in body types was what shocked me most from that podcast. The hybrid ducks, along with the lack of knowing to migrate, simply can't because their bodies can't handle it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Duck Dynasty did more to screw duck hunting than DDT ever did.

Duck Dynasty started in 2012. What I mentioned was happening 10-15 years before it was a show. Duck Dynasty capitalized and also definitely piled on but it wasn’t the start. I’m betting there were shows in Outdoor channel that played in early on

The 90s in Arkansas got real as Stuttgartt pursed and played on being the Duck Capital of the World. I recall reading an open letter to Arkansas from Maryland about putting it all out there.
Where we hunted was public land but folks kinda had their in holes and had named them since the early days. The Cache and White became federal refugees and on the world maps. That was the start of all hell breaking loose in those parts. Thats also when I quit going over because of the fighting over a hole. We had it happen to us and told a buddy that was it for me.

I get the hatred for DD but it started well before then. Back before them those arkie folks were hating on DU and switching over to Delta Waterfowl. They didn’t have all those advertisements for guides in Arkansas

In fairness I think this pre-dated duck dynasty by a long time. The original captive duck releases were…..Ducks Unlimited!

And I agree most captive ducks die in nature or stay put, but enough make it out to inter-breed and mess up the wild genetics.

Shouldn’t be legal to just release captive birds. Especially with all the BS that law-abiding duck hunters have to put up with. It’s having a deleterious effect on the whole wild population.

I’ve overheard several biologist speak about the muddling up of the mallard genetics. There is so many duck clubs where mallard are released for pay hunts. It’s everywhere.

I raised quail, chukar and pheasant back in 05-07 to work my lab and have fun. I often wonder if I introduced black head to the world old turkeys in the area. All birds I bought were supposed to have been inoculated but who knows.

Canned hunts fill a need for those that have money but not the time or places to actually hunt. They do allow actual shooting of game which is not always the case now. Heck we
Count a good hunt as not getting skunked. 😝

https://www.splitreed.com/articles/maryland-moratorium

Here’s a link that is interesting too


Ps thanks for the podcast link. Very jnformative

I don’t care if people want to shoot pen raised pets. But apparently a small percentage are escaping and destroying the wild genetics. Not good.

I think those canned hunts are absolutely ridiculous and you couldn't pay me to partake in one. I take that back. I would probably do it but it would have to be a lot of money.

But I always assumed they were hardly having an effect on wild populations of mallards.

Are these released birds that are muddying up genetics actually following the wild ducks back to Canada? Seems like they wouldn't be able to make trip, much less successfully produce offspring that survive.

They are hanging around. Kinda like the geese that never leave.

Refuges and powerplants (warm water discharge) along with 1000's of acres being planted "just" for ducks is what hurt the hunting many years ago. I gave up on it back in the early 2000's. I sure do miss it but it just got to be where it wasn't worth the hassle.

The ducks are still around the Mississsippi flyway. They just feed at night.

I'm 65......Wood Ducks I have circled Back to here in Alabama.....20 minutes in th' Mornin'.....Good B'Fast. Deer in th' P.M. Had many of a Hunt 30 to 40 years ago in Arkansas. Shoot ducks in Africa once a year Now....

There’s studies showing duck migration patterns are moving westward and geese migration is moving eastward. Also there are studies indicating the big ducks hang tight to the freeze line. Fluctuating back and forth with it

I think there are several valid studies and or theories but pressure still ranks the highest of all. That’s just common sense

Killing for #’s. We’ve all done it. We stay to make sure we get a 5-6 man limit. The owners and lease holders won’t say they had a good year they tell ya killed 400-500. It’s money limited everyday we went. Damn eating that many birds.
To me the no til planting leaves food on the ground. Water fowl have no need to move unless all water is froze.

What killed the duck numbers was simply 60 day seasons and 6 duck bag limits.

After 40 years or changing around season and bag limits like the wind we have been stuck on 6/60 for nearly 30 years now.

It was proven that duck imprint on a particular area well before most of us were born. That's maybe 100 year old knowledge if not longer.

You take that fact and add too many hunters and ridiculous hunting pressure to a defined area... make that the MS River Delta OR maybe just make that North Alabama in your head.

Now - Bird numbers are simply an estimated count someone takes by flying over their breeding grounds looking out of the window of an airplane. That's gonna have very little to do with how many will show themselves in you area.

Basic common sense would say that if you over hunt your local population you will see fewer birds in your area over time because less and less will come back each year.

Also common sense would say that over time more and more would stay to our North and not migrate.

I don't feel like this really that hard to comprehend. I know so many want to make it a mystery but I don't get that. Basic common sense is something that 99% of people out here don't possess.


IMO - The seasons should be determined and set for the following year..... at least initially based on Refuge counts in the Southern part of the Flyway. That's what is wrong. Then they can do the breeding ground survey late Summer and these two data points should be factored into the decision. NOT purely the overall numbers from the pond counts which is what I feel is the complete justification for 6/60 and why this has continued for so long.

Goatkiller - The reverse of that holds true for migrating ducks. I know of some folks in North Alabama that created ideal duck hunting habitat in a pre-existing flyway. The maintained it, planted it and didn't hunt it for five years. Their goal was to provide ducks with a safe place and hoping for the location to imprint. Each year, the number of ducks visiting the site increased which they assumed was building off of imprinting and the older ducks bringing juvenile ducks back with them each year. When they did start hunting it, they only did so a few times a year. Now granted, these folks had other places to hunt and this was a test case for them but it worked. Not sure the average duck hunter trying to create a duck hunting property has the resources or the patience to implement a plan like this.

So I think we are on the same page. My point was... You take this pond or duck hole they created where they got birds imprinting on that location... they sell that property to another group...which this new group shoots it every day and kills a good many birds.

The next year comes around and you've got less birds coming back to the hole.. Shoot them year 2 in the same manner... then even less birds year 3 and so on.

We've known this is the case for pretty much forever and a few days. Proven facts from possibly a century ago..... they have literally known this since the dawn of Waterfowl management.


I think the Southern part of the flyway certainly has fewer birds than it did even 10 years ago. Maybe other factors also changed... we can use Farming Practices if we want to as part of the reasoning for the numbers decline and not purely hunting. It really doesn't matter.... what matters is there are fewer birds.

If we are shooting too many birds or other conditions are impacting this on our end of the Flyway, then that should be quantified and taken into account when setting the Federal seasons and bag limits. It is not taken into account. That's part of the issue I believe. From a common sense perspective..... it makes perfect sense to me.

Ducks don't all instinctively fly South for the Winter. If you kill all the birds flying south OR if they get down here and there is no food, etc. The facts remain the same. We don't have enough birds down here to justify 6/60. I don't care what the pond counts in N. Dakota are that's irrelevant to what is happening down here.


Before 6/60 we had more ducks on public land in N. Alabama I can assure you of that. If you go back and look at the Wheeler duck counts I don't know what you will see... maybe they haven't declined. But if 6/60 is bringing enough hunting pressure that the average bag limits are in the toilet from a day's hunting.... why do we not lower the bag limit or shorten the season?

The answer is Money. If you go back and read the Framework they set in the mid-90's you will walk away understanding this is all about money. The goal was to "Maximize Harvest". And that's the issue the entire thing is a intricate web but the underlying intent is to "maximize harvest". 6/60 maximizes harvest not what is best for the ducks. In that regard it is severely flawed IMO. Shocking that we have held 6/60 for nearly 30 years? I'm not shocked. This is exactly like gauging how well we were doing during the Vietnam war by using a body count.

Agree, I think we are seeing it through the same lens. Unfortunately for these guys the property is not holding ducks anymore but that is due development on the surrounding properties. Seems building warehouses, strip malls and multi-family developments will destroy a duck hole. Who knew?!?

I have a wood duck hole that I hunt in North Alabama. We try to limit it to three hunts a year, one at Thanksgiving, one at Christmas and one in mid-late January. it produces most every hunt because we don't over hunt it. Fighting the urge to be in there once a week is the difficult part.

I don't think hunting has as big of an impact on actual waterfowl populations as much as the loss of brooding habitat up north does.

Now I certainly think you can make the argument that hunting can change waterfowl movement patterns, but if that were the case then that would eliminate everyone's argument about birds short-stopping Alabama. Places like Arkansas certainly get more waterfowl hunting pressure than Alabama yet still have tons of ducks. Which, by that line of thinking, would push birds even further south into places like Alabama.

We have a blind on reelfoot lake we have had since the 1950's and here is what I can tell you with absolute certainty. We keep records on birds killed and conditions. The blind has not moved and nether has a single blind around it since 1995.

Hunting Pressure has been a 10/10 since 1950 the blind and every blind around it is hunted every day of Waterfowl season. Numbers have steadily declined. Same blind, same guide running it, no other changes.

I'm not talking about a woody hole 'm talking about a blind a couple miles off the MS river that use to consistently put well over 2,000 dead ducks on the books it shoots 12. 50/day x 60 days = 3k for perspective. We use to average around 30 with 50+ days not being uncommon. Average less than 15 today.

6/60 is either a supportable season/bag limit or it isn't. If the overall duck count remains the same that is irrelevant we can't continue down the current path it is ruining our hunting on our end of the flyway IMO.

Now this is a case where over-hunting having an affect on bird movement certainly seems to have an argument. If you (and man others) consistently hunt the same spot every day of the season for 50+ years then you should certainly expect to see a decline in the numbers of ducks using that spot. These historic hunting grounds in places like Arkansas may hunt most days of the season, but they're limiting the pressure they're putting on the birds by having resting areas that are not hunted, hunting multiple holes instead of the same spot every day, and not shooting into large groups of birds(or at least they should be IMO).

Again, I would lean towards loss of brood habitat playing the biggest role, not hunting. Every year there is a drought up north farmers are burning cattails and drying out potholes to be planted the following season. I'm not faulting farmers for this, but it certainly plays a role when ducks are running out of suitable habitat to lay nests.

Well, the fishing isnt as good either. 😁

In the late 80s/early 90s ducks (around here) were something my friends and I would kill before the canada goose season came in. My friends farm would kill 300 geese a year and about 200 or so ducks. When the geese quit coming those numbers went from around 50 canada geese and 500 to 800 ducks. I dont hunt with that friend anymore, but the other buddy of mine has said almost the same. Now we shoot maybe 60-100 specks and 200 ducks. The ducks are still there they simply dont feed off the refuge during the day. If you wait 30 minutes past shooting hours thousands will fill the field.

Most refuges count their birds. I havent looked into the numbers but that data is readily available. I just go shoot them for fun, Im not really a serious waterfowl hunter.

Arkansas doesn't get "tons" of Ducks like they used to.....especially Mallards. Those guys firmly feel that more ducks have shifted to the Central Flyway than ever before. But, there's plenty of rice for them to feed on in Arkansas.....Why did the Birds shift.....only thing left to say is PRESSURE. The Older Birds started making the shift via Mother Nature and the younger Birds followed. Having hunted/shot all species of Ducks.....Mallards and Black Ducks are the most Wary.....same as an Older Goose. A prime example is the overpopulation of Snow Geese-----the Older Birds are tough to fool and they live up to 20 years. The Old Veterans lead the Younger Ones to Safer areas. Most of the Snows killed during the Spring Hunt are juveniles. As far as Ducks shifting and Coming to Alabama seeking less Pressure.....they possibly would IF We had suitable water and the Food. We got PLENTY of Water......but most of it is too Deep for Puddle Ducks. We've got plenty of Wood-Ducks but they walk up on the land and feed on Acorns for the most part.....the others are not Accustomed to doing such. Various Pockets in N. Alabama near the Tenn. River are the only spots for decent "Big Duck" hunting.....been that way for a long time. We don't plant a lot of grain crops in Alabama anymore.....much less on ground that could be flooded....too hilly.A Zillion years ago I was told that the Mobile Delta was a really good area for Gadwalls,Teal,Pintails.....and of course Wood-Ducks. Every Swinging Dick in Mobile and Baldwin County go there now and push the handful that do come.....OUT......again.....PRESSURE.

All about pressure

My 2 cents but robo sucks leveled the playing field. At minimum they should be outlawed in Canada. Did a trip up there and I bet 90% of the mallards we killed were young birds. Not much bigger that a wood duck. Don’t even need to know how to blow a call these days with all the motion decoys.

Robo ducks

It is amazing that with all the rules and regulations around duck hunting that a battery powered decoy is 100% legal. You can’t do that for any other species.

They regulate every other detail tightly.

The robo early on absolutely got ducks killed. Still will on occasion but wher we hunting arkie it’s a flip of the coin I don’t use one around here especially for big ducks. Teal love them though it’s seems.

At the end I of the day it’s so much pressure applied for a long time over a vast area. There is no rest and when they find it they stay put.

How they’ve been hunted has changed. The Midwest used to not bother with them and Canada geese was king. They were over hunted and they switched to ducks.

As far as rest ponds. That’s been around as long as I’ve hunted and the pressure was a heck of a lot lighter.

We hunted with Rich-n-Tone guide service and they had rest holes all over their property. That was during a 30 day 3 duck season during the late 80s early 90s. Large guide service shave rest holes where no one is allowed to even flush birds.


I still hear Larry for Louisiana mention that the same number of birds are killed every year so there’s no biological reason to change anything.
The number of birds killed per hunter has dropped and for some significantly so hunter satisfaction is way down overall.

What is really happening is BIG money has the best properties and birds. Everyone else is fighting over the leftovers

I think that farmers are installing more field tile and causing those wet winter and spring low spots to not hold water and provide a rest and food for ducks

The migration is due to everything up north freezing over correct? When was the last time that actually happened? And If it did freeze over within a couple days things thawed back out. Seems to me like the birds don’t have to go that far south anymore, more folks are hunting now than ever, and we have become exceptionally efficient. All that lends to the problem and the answer is somewhere amidst all of that.

I live in north Jackson county. In the 70’s and 80’s we shot ducks in the flooded fields for 3-5 days when the water got out in the fields after a big rain. Now there is farm after farm diked up trying to have duck habitat. The trouble is most of them close to me quit putting in the time and effort to get them drained and planted it takes a lot of time and effort. We all worked together this year to get food planted. It hasn’t paid off yet but if they don’t get discouraged I think it will.

I think there’s several migration patterns. One is earlier and pretty much ingrained and they make it down to Louisiana in a timely manner. The others are more weather influenced but has some timely pattern too. The last one is definitely weather related as the big ducks fluctuate with the hard freeze line. Locked up and can’t bounce back north. There is always open water somewhere and the stragglers cling to that. A friend hunted Maine for sea ducks and said the broadside ditches were full of mallards and black ducks but the water was open and running yet open waters were locked up.

HERE'S Your SIGN!!! Every Swingin' DICK has become a Wanna' Be Duck Hunter. Unless One is Born into or Married into th' HOLY Grounds of Family Land in Arkie....La. Oklahoma....Kansas.....Missouri.....Might want to think about Squirrels.

White Oak says it’s so. There’s many others but they’re the most prominent in FB.

All I know is this is the worst year I’ve hunted in 15 years. The spots on the river that usually hold wood ducks are empty. I’ve been 7 times this season and only killed 1 duck. Seen a grand total of 20. I don’t know if the el Nino weather caused it or what, but it’s been abysmal.

I don’t know what part of the state or river you are on, but we have been over hunting/ harvesting wood ducks in central Alabama for the last decade. Too many folks hunting, period.

Back in the early 90's when Lowndes Mgt. area first opened and probably 15 years thereafter....I would go to the back area and park before daylight and go to one of the many Beaver Ponds on that place. NEVER saw over 1 or 2 other hunters in there. It was a sure thing for a wood-duck limit and the occasional Teal,Mallard,Gadwall. Went out there about 10 years ago....shooting was heard all over that series of ponds. Went to my old parking spot and counted 14 vehicles.....mostly teenagers and folks in there 20's hunting. Haven't been back......

Simple ==== not cold enough North of us to drive them down and the northern hunters are doing every thing they can to short stop the ducks .Been like this before when it gets cold them will move south

It’s only gotten worse.

The 3 duck limit for woodies opens that right on up. I don’t know why 2 going to 3 mattered but it did. Most duck hunters I now that’s been at it for years noticed the same thing. My duck hole held around 200 during season and I rarely shot them. Guys with me would ask why not. Simple, we will kill the big ducks first and wait for the woodies later in the morning which would be 7:30 ish. Lack of big ducks and diminishing opportunities have changed things for the worse.

Sadly the new comers are happy killing a few mallards and whatever for the season.


If they only knew

The problem here is not the limits, but the sizes of the hunting parties. Groups of ten and twelve filling up truck beds. That became real popular with the younger generation. And here I am sounding negative. I thinks it’s great younger generations are getting into the outdoors, but not out of what it’s become.