Lowndes WMA Wild Pig Research - UPDATE

Quite a while back I indicated that I would supply future updates regarding the wild pig research at Lowndes WMA that is being conducted by Auburn in conjunction with ADCNR. Unfortunately, I completely forgot to supply any updates, and I was gently reminded of that a few days ago. I apologize for not doing so. Anyway...here is a general update on what has transpired during the past 12-18 months with regards to the research. Keep in mind that the objective of this research is not to remove pigs, but rather to understand wild pigs in the context of a removal effort. Removal is just part of the experimental process.

The WMA is naturally split into 2 large sections (Northwest and Southeast) that are approximately 8,000 acres each. Auburn is targeting the north section as a removal area with the objective of making it pig-free. We are doing this very slowly because of the need to understand how pigs are moving in response to our removals. In other words...what happens to surrounding sounders when you remove an adjoining sounder? Here is what we have found...

- The population estimate of wild pigs before removal began on the north area was approximately 60 pigs that were in 7-8 sounders. The population estimate of wild pigs on the south area was closer to 100 pigs that were in 9-10 sounders. Since those original estimates, we have collected additional data and been able to refine our estimates of the number of sounders. There are closer to 10 sounders in the north area, and probably closer to 12 in the south area...but, estimates of the total number of wild pigs on both sites were very close.

- Using GPS collars we have been able to closely monitor the movements of many of these sounders throughout the year. We have found that there is not a lot of overlap in space use of sounders, which is similar to what was found in our research at Fort Benning. While the sounders at Lowndes tend to move about the landscape a bit more (they are less confined to a rigid "territory") than those at Benning, the data we have collected so far indicate that they are still rather sedentary in movement. The belief that they are regularly travelling off of the area to agricultural fields, or moving distances of several miles in a night have not been supported by the data to date. Additionally, the presence of hunters during deer season, turkey season, or pig hunts has done nothing to alter their space-use patterns. But, please keep in mind that our analysis of movement patterns is in its very early stages and we won't be able to say anything conclusive for a few more years (sorry...but it's a ton of data to analyze, and we are far from finished collecting it.

- The wild pigs on the north area have home ranges that are about twice the size of those on the south area, but movements within those home ranges follow the same pattern. In other words, the sounders seem to be fairly committed to the space they use.

- We believe that we are very close to having all of the pigs removed from the north area. We know where the remaining pigs are, and how many are there. Our hope is to have them removed in the next few weeks, but a few of them are proving to be fairly educated. This is likely due to a lifetime of dealing with traps, further education by our team (trapping and collaring sows), and fairly heaving hunting pressure on the area. I don't have a completely current update from the crew on how many are actually remaining as of writing this email, but I'm fairly confident that it is around 15. While you may be wondering why it has taken us so long to remove the pigs, remember our research objectives...understand patterns of space use and responses of wild pigs to removal, so as to understand the impacts of whole sounder removal. In other words...we have intentionally not trapped for most of the past year so that we could monitor the response of the pigs on the WMA and in surrounding areas to our removal efforts.

- We are in the process of collecting data on white-tailed deer and turkey densities, with the objective of examining the impacts of wild pigs on these species. There are some very strong beliefs among the general public and the scientific community that wild pigs are negatively impacts both deer and turkeys. However, there really aren't any data available to determine whether or not there is an impact, much less the degree of impact. Hopefully we will be able to shed some light on these questions.

- There are other aspects to the research as well, but I suspect that they will be less interesting to this group so I'll refrain from getting into those aspects.

Keep in mind as we move forward that this is a long process. The entire study is designed to take 5 years form start to finish, and so it will be a while before we can really say anything that is conclusive. Unfortunately that is the reality of the scientific process in many cases...particularly when you are dealing with a large mammal such as wild pigs, and the necessity exists to collect data over multiple years. Combine that length of data collection with reams and reams of data that need to be analyzed, and you have a long process. Fortunately the team that we have working in the field is as good as they get, and they have years of experience conducting research with wild pigs.

Realize that what I have provided you is just and update, and is not intended to be concluding information on what is happening at Lowndes. In essence, it's a snapshot of what we believe is occurring at this time based upon the data we have collected so far. Please don't take what I've written, nor these data, and publish them. If you're interested in putting together an official article for distribution, please either contact me or one of the other individuals associated with the research so that we can provide the most up to date and accurate information possible.

I'm confident that there will be a lot of people on this forum that "know for a fact that we're wrong"...as has always been the case whenever I've posted anything on ALDEER. I'm also confident that what I've posted will generate a lot of curiosity and thoughtful questions. I'll try and get back on here now and again during the coming days to answer some of them, but please understand that I probably can't devote the time necessary to answer all of them...I hope that you understand.

Steve

3...2...1...

I do have a couple of questions if you have the time.

Were traps the only method of removal or were some shot via hunters and/or from project employees using thermal optics?

I understand the trap the entire sounder theory, how are ya'll addressing the boars traveling separate from the sounders?

Thank you for your update and time.

Pretty cool stuff. Going to be interesting to see what comes out of this study when it is finished.

Are the sounders you guys are monitoring using only the WMA or are groups that use the WMA and surrounding properties counted in there as well? Just curious as to what factors are used to qualify the study population.

Thanks for posting doc. Always enjoy getting a look into the research being done with wildlife.

Thanks very much for the update and information, Steve. Interesting and illuminating.

Plain and simple, either the population estimates that have been put out in the past are grossly over-estimated......or, the population density for this project has been under-stated to influence the percentages.

That is not argumentative.....just fact.
And, I can supply many documents that are readily available on the internet that show this.

A few pigs have been harvested by hunters...I don't have exact numbers, but I am fairly certain that we are in the 1-3 range. One entire sounder was trapped and eliminated by an adjoining landowner. All of the pigs that have been removed by project personnel have been trapped.

As far as boars go, we aren't overly worried about boars. We will trap them as they show up, but they are not a major focus of the control program.

160 pigs on 13,962 acres. Wow. Anybody wanna guess the deer population? I'd bet 350.

Thanks for the update!

Less than 5 hogs per acre!
I guess Barry is WAY off on his State Population estimate!!!!

Dr. Ditchkoff,

Since research has shown that there is a small isolated population could the study change and the hogs not be eradicated. From my point of view the hogs represent a huntable game animal that adds to the enjoyment to the usage of the WMA? The hogs are present in a swamp why would / should they be eradicated?

and have the 4 lane blacktops effectively functioned as barriers for the hog dispersement?

sorry one more... What's the weight of the largest hog?

Thank you for your input..

I'm not sure what you mean about a "small isolated population". But, with regards to the research, the study is designed to answer some questions about impacts of wild pigs as well as questions associated with strategic approaches to wild pig eradication programs. As a result, we won't be able to change the study.

We haven't had much data regarding any of our collared pigs leaving the WMA, so we really don't have information on the effect of highways acting as a barrier to movements.

I don't have any weight data available to me, and so can't answer your last question.

I infer 60 pigs on 8000 acres as a "SMALL" population. Since the pigs are not appearing to leave the WMA I would consider that to be "isolated".

Personally, I can not understand why a goal of research should be to eradicate a "WILD" population. To try to quantify the impacts of 60 pigs over 8000 acres on deer and turkey populations seems SWAGGY at best and worst.

The pigs are being eradicated from the northern section of the WMA, but the lands around the WMA still have pigs. We are just going to work to keep that section of the WMA pig-free.

The goal of the research is not to eradicate. It is to understand how control programs can be effective and to understand the biological and ecological impacts of pigs on an area.

I am assuming (possibly incorrectly) that you are speculating that 60 pigs on 8,000 acres is a low density. If you are assuming this, and that is what you are suggesting, then I would answer you in 2 ways:

(1) If we could detect a significant biological impact from a low population, then imagine the impact that a high density population would have? So in truth, if 60 pigs/8,000 acres is a low density population (which I don't believe it is...and will address in my next point), then it is the perfect situation to address biological impacts...if we can detect effects.

(2) The 60 pigs that we have detected on the 8,000 acres translates to approximately 5 pigs/square mile. This number is actually well in line with other published scientific density estimates for wild pigs. The fact seems to be that speculation on pig density by hunters and land managers tends to far exceed actual density in most cases.

The data that we collect and the direct statistical comparisons will be far from SWAGGY. They will be detailed and presented in full view of anyone that wants to examine them when the study is complete. I would encourage you to do so when they become available. Additionally, the data, methods, results, etc will be submitted for publication in peer-reviewed outlets and so will be examined by other scientists around the country and/or around the world before our study is considered to be above board. So, I don't think SWAGGY will apply in this case.

Thank you sir for your clarification. Once again I would infer 60 pigs to be a small number on 8000 acres. I have seen over 60 deer on a 20 acre winter rye field in Bullock county....hence the comparison and utilization of the word small.

SWAGGY to me means it would almost be impossible to extrapolate out the impact due to the many many variables involved and in doing so results could be for the best or worst.

I managed a grant funded research facility for Auburn for 2 years and I assure you that all data needs to be heavily scrutinized due to the inherent conflict of interest between a graduate student and their lead professor. There is no way that it is not a conflict of interest in that graduate students lives are made much easier if the research data supports the lead professors grant and study goals. That is not an ethical indictment, just my understanding through experience.

Once all the hogs are eliminated, I believe you estimated that to be in the next few weeks, what will the next 3-4 years of Reaearch be on?

I found a 2009 article that discussed the hog population on the Lowndes WMA. It quoted Mr. Jaworski and stated that when he started work there in 1997 he saw 2 hogs. In 1998 he saw 50/60 hogs and in 1999 the hogs had "taken over" 5000 acres.

What has been done since 1999 to control the hogs on Lowndes WMA? The hog population was less there when the project started than it was in 1999. These figures lead me to believe that either whatever control methods that were being used since 1999 were working, or the hogs aren't nearly as prolific as advertised.

I appreciate your thoughts. I can honestly cay that that I don't have any goals for the research other than to answer the questions. The data will say what they will say. But, I agree with what you're suggesting...if there is a preconceived notion when entering the research, it is entirely possible to incorrectly infer that result when analyzing the data. I think that a major role of the thesis committee and the peer-review process is to ensure that this does not occur.

There will be continued research on ecological parameters in an attempt to measure their response in the absence of wild pigs. We anticipate that if wild pigs are impacting the parameters we are measuring, it will take a while for any improvements in those parameters to become apparent. We will also be continuing to document and study the influx of wild pigs to the eradicated area, as well as examining the movement parameters on the south section.

I know that there were control efforts employed by ADCNR, as well as hunting. However, I do not have the details of what exactly was done. You might have to contact Chris Jawroski to get those details as he would be much more familiar with that information.

I also didn't add that there is about a year of data analysis, writing, etc. It just takes a while to process all of the information and put it into a legible product.

It takes time to do the research correctly and teach others how to do it right at the same time. Keep up the good work Steve. I got a project in the idea phase that your thoughts will be appreciated on. I will contact you about that soon.

I suppose that I should clarify my statements.

I may have trouble putting my Thoughts into words, so bear with me! But, here goes:

My skepticism is founded by posts on this board last year regarding this Project. Before this Project even started, Steve Ditchkoff had expressed his opinion that Recreational Hunting should be outlawed. Then, it was stated that the primary goal of the Project was not research or learning, it was to prove his past conclusions from another study. Also, he clearly stated that this project was being funded by the ALDCNR and gave a partial list of products purchased from a vendor. The company that supplies those supplies has also made numerous statements of the same philosophy....ban recreational hunting. They state this, although their primary source of income is not traps. It is guiding recreational hunters. mainly night vision and thermal hunts. BUT, they disguise it as 'Control' or 'Eradication' efforts.
There is a definite bias here. And, as the study is being conducted by students who seek to gain not only their professors praises, but a passing grade that will set their career in motion.

I just do not see it as unbiased Scientific Research.

Asking for clarification here please. Which company are you referring too?

Not Alabama Hog Control.
But, Rod Pinkston of Jager Pro has stated that numerous times in the past.
I fully understand that you are simply a dealer for their products.

Steve,

When you said the quote below, what acerage are we talking about for the "committed space they use"? Average acerage for a sounder on the north side vs average acerage of use for a sounder on the south side. I'm curious to this home range size.

"- The wild pigs on the north area have home ranges that are about twice the size of those on the south area, but movements within those home ranges follow the same pattern. In other words, the sounders seem to be fairly committed to the space they use."

I do think that recreational hunting of wild pigs should be banned...if there is a desire to eradicate wild pigs from the landscape. In my opinion, the first step in an eradication program would be to maximize the chances that additional sub-populations of wild pigs don't pop up. The scientific and management community is in pretty strong agreement that this would be the first step. I understand that there is recreational and economic value generated by wild pigs, but I personally don't feel that value exceeds the costs of having wild pigs.

I disagree that I indicated that "the primary goal...of this research is to prove past conclusions from another study". If I stated that in the past, then I failed to clarify. The primary goal of this research is to improve our understanding of wild pigs and the specific aspects of pigs associated with the stated objectives. Scientifically, we frequently retest findings from previous studies to ensure that they were valid. This is a very common practice and is a part of the scientific method. Our understanding was that the pigs on Lowndes WMA had different spatial patterns than the wild pig populations on which whole sounder removal had been originally validated. So, this was designed to test whether whole sounder removal could be effective on a population that functioned differently. It was not to "prove past conclusions".

Hopefully it's not being suggested that Auburn is in bed with Jager Pro. Any beliefs along those lines couldn't be further from the truth. If anyone does believe that, then I would encourage you dig deeply into the past regarding that relationship.

You folks can take those statements as you see fit. I can't speak for anyone else involved, but as the leader of the AU research team for this project I will unequivocally state that the research being conducted is unbiased and has the primary objective of advancing the scientific knowledge of wild pigs.

If you don't like the research objectives that are being examined... I'm sorry. If you still feel that there is a conspiracy...I probably can't change that with anything I say. At this point I've spent enough of my time addressing the foundation of the research project.

Skinny

Give me a shout whenever...you have my number.

The average on the north side is about 800-1000 acres, and on the south side it's about 400-500. Understand that these numbers are preliminary and not based upon a sample size that I would sign my name to...they are just what we have found so far. Obviously, as the study moves forward and we have the opportunity to examine spatial data from a greater number of sounders, we will have more precise numbers. Hope that helps.

DR. Ditchkoff said,

"I do think that recreational hunting of wild pigs should be banned...if there is a desire to eradicate wild pigs from the landscape. In my opinion, the first step in an eradication program would be to maximize the chances that additional sub-populations of wild pigs don't pop up. The scientific and management community is in pretty strong agreement that this would be the first step. I understand that there is recreational and economic value generated by wild pigs, but I personally don't feel that value exceeds the costs of having wild pigs."

I applaud your honesty in going on record that you are against recreational hunting of Wild Pigs but it horrifies me that you are now in a position to affect policy and management of Wildlife in the state of Alabama. In my opinion anyone who is against recreational hunting should be banned from any ALDCNR grants and sure as Hell should never be tenured at one of our State of Alabama Public Universities in the Wildlife Department.

I saw this coming...but I am honest with my opinions (for good or bad) and so shared it.

For the record...I'm not against recreational hunting. I have and do hunt a lot of different species...I have pig hunted for a lot of years, and have done so very recently. I will also continue to participate as long as it's a legal recreational activity.

From the perspective of eradication of wild pigs, I just believe that logic dictates that the first step is to stop the spread of the population. The belief is that the spread of wild pigs is primarily based upon the recreational incentive of pig hunting, and the resultant movement of pigs into new areas for hunting purposes. If that is true, then the easiest (maybe not the best way) way to stop that spread is to eliminate the incentive.

Maybe it's an unpopular stance with some (maybe with many), but I'm willing to give up my recreational opportunity of wild pig hunting if it meant that we were making a MAJOR step towards eradication. Understand, that while I think pigs are a cool animal to research, and that they are a lot of fun to hunt and eat, they really scare me regarding the impacts that they are known to have on the landscape. They terrify me with regards to the problems that they MIGHT cause. I don't think that most people fully grasp the impacts that they have as an invasive species.

I know it's an unpopular stance with most of the people reading this thread. I'm sorry my opinion on this differs. I also hope that you understand that my goal with the research is not to prove or demonstrate anything...it's simply to address the research questions/objectives that this project was designed to address. I'm not going to falsify data, etc. I can tell you with 100% honesty that I will work very hard to ensure that the results generated from this study are unbiased and as objective as possible.

Maybe that clarifies...maybe it doesn't.

Dr. Ditchchoff,

Due to the usage of federal monies in the grant process can you please answer if a NEPA review was conducted as part of an Environmental Impact Assessment prior to the beginning of the Pig Eradication study at the Lowndes WMA? What was the impacts statements findings in regards to NEPA ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE?

In my opinion the study as conducted SCREAMS a Finding of Adverse significant impact in the NEPA required Environmental Justice Category. For approximately 20 years national magazines have listed the Lowndes WMA as a preferred location for public land hunting. Hunters frequent the surrounding communities and spend money significantly in a beneficial economic way in adjoining communities such as Whitehall and Haynesville. Your project is eradicating the Wild Pigs on the public property. By removing the economic benefits of the wild pigs to the surrounding community and county Your study as conducted appears to disproportionately harm the lower income residents of Lowndes County, White Hall and Haynesville thus failing NEPA ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE.

I'm sorry, but this has evolved into something way beyond providing an update on the research. I'm not interested in spending my time on debates concerning whether the research should be conducted or not. With that said, I am going to politely bow out of these discussions. Once the research is complete, we will do what we can to make the findings available.

Is that a no in regards to the NEPA Environmental Justice? and if so Honestly, I wonder if the Southern Poverty Law Center would be interested in this study?

There has been a lot posted since my last vistit. So, here goes nothing!



I have not seen that inferred. As a matter of fact, most people that are active in the World of Conservation and involved with feral hogs know that you and Rod have a huge ego clash over who gets to wear the crown for the 'Whole Sounder Removal' Theory. So, wrong conclusion....again.



That is a totally hypothesized opinion....nothing whatsoever remotely scientific about it. However, you repeatedly state and desire applause for your honesty? Well, my opinion is that a bunch of people waste a lot of taxpayers money on unfounded ideas and want/need a scapegoat for their lack of success. So, they constantly point fingers at others to take the fault away from themselves. Ft. Benning is not, and was not, eradicated of hogs. And, neither is Lowndes WMA. So, until we have some proof of your success and verifiable evidence of human intervention with re-stocking.....we are all just stating opinions.



There was already a study on Lowndes about 8 years ago that AU conducted. So, we are now re-testing a re-test?? How are the findings aligning with those? I see some big discrepancies myself.....



Maybe it is the 'why' and 'how', along with 'who pays for' that I/we do not like?? But, you are correct in the fact that simply stating your opinions will not change my mind.



What happened to 'Transparency' and you welcoming the results being reviewed and qurestioned?

You are basically FORCING the citizens of the State to succumb to the findings of Research that you are openly admitting that you are biased about. But, you are done talking about it?? Really????

That is the very reason why it is being questioned by many!

Steve,
15 hogs remaining on 8000 ac, Really, I truly don't believe that, But if you Honestly believe that's true and not sceard to be proven wrong, Would you consider letting me get a team of dog hunters together and give me a week to scout the area and 2 weeks to hunt ( don't think I'd need but 2 days) and we'll catch more hogs than you say is on the property, It want cost anyone a penny, All I see that it would do is prove that one of us is FOS, What you say??

a healthy sow can have 2-4 litters a year and you're saying that there are only roughly 60 pigs?? Heck 2 sows can possibly have close to that in a year. they have no natural predators and when i hunted there this year i ran into pig sign almost everywhere. north and south areas are loaded. just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. If alabama wants pigs gone then turn the hunters loose and let them do what they do. it irritates me to no end that people complain about hogs yet we do nothing to solve the problem. As we speak sows are getting bred and preparing to have a litter that will only add to our issues. hogs and predators are a huge issue in alabama but call montgomery and ask about either and it's like they don't have the slightest clue. 60...really.... please do us a favor and come up with a more realistic number....really.

The gestation period is 115-140 days according to published research depending on the age of the sow. It also says they will bred again about 25 days after giving birth to the prior litter. So, I don't think they can have more than 2 litters per year based on the math.

So, that is a litter every 140-165 days and that is with no break. From what I see they are pretty much seasonal with two litters per year pretty much dropping a litter about the same time each year.

That math works, Barry.
And, my experience is the same as yours as far as the seasonal peaks in dropping pigs. There are random outliers. But, very pronounced peaks.
And, I have not changed my stance.....
I do agree with Steve that most hog populations are highly exaggerated. But, I think that we have gone from one extreme from the other with this one!

Also, if the Sounder theory is such solid science.....and hogs do not migrate.....where the heck do they come from?
And, if I hear 'the back of a truck' one more damn time without a f'ing picture.....I am gonna throat punch some poor bastard!!!!
Move out of the past people!!!!

LOL, I hear ya.

I wonder if the DCNR can point us to public record information on number and type of violations issued each year? Would be interesting to see if any have been issued. Not asking for names.

I know of a couple of people ticketed in the past 5 years.
The ones I am aware of were all hauling one or two live hogs on their way back to their parking areas.
I have no idea if they were going to haul them away or not. Maybe they were? Not sure!!!!
But, I do not know of one single case of any large-scale haul-n-release arrest NOR do I have any knowledge whatsoever of any! I have been asked repeatedly by people from all factions about that. And, I promise you that I just do not think it is happening.

You are pissed because state wildlife biologists are trying to eradicate non-native wildlife that are decimating the habitat of our native wildlife species?

Maybe you could convince me otherwise, but do you actually think that hog hunters stimulate Lowndes County's economy significantly?

Ozark you are incorrect, I am not "pissed" in regards to pig eradication at Lowndes, but I am qualified to ask Dr. Ditchkoff a professional regulatory related question. I just want to be sure the process that is ongoing at Lowndes is proper and fair.

I have previously been contracted by various governmental agencies and have conducted NEPA reviews / studies. If I had conducted a NEPA Environmental Justice review for the pig study I would have red flagged the potential adverse economic impact to the local community. That doesn't mean the study wouldn't have been done but differing mitigative efforts may have been necessary. Hence, my inquiry of Dr. Ditchkoff.

Just playing devil's advocate here. And I am not taking a position and will not...

One could argue that deer and turkey hunter dollars far exceed the revenues brought in by the hog hunters and the removal of the hogs COULD actually increase deer/turkey numbers thereby increasing utilization of the area actually increasing the economic impact to the local economy. Couldn't they?

Of course I know it doesn't really work that way. It is food for thought though.

I agree with nighthunter and would argue for what he briefly went in to. Also, I would have to be persuaded to believe a reduction in hog hunting would carry a significant economic burden to the community. I just can't imagine it. I am open to being convinced, however. Maybe there is data representative of hog-only hunters that frequent the wma. I don't know. I would believe the quality of deer and upland bird hunting would be greatly enhanced in the absence of hogs, consequently attracting more hunters to the wma.

I would then ask the question, "Who has the data to back that stance up?"
If the only data collected is for deer and turkey hunting, then that is what the data would show. However, hogs are also fair-game during those hunts as well and could very well provide the incentive for participation.

Jus' sayin....

I don't know numbers but I have met several people on gun hunts at wmas that were there just for hogs. I also know a few people who will go to certain wmas for the possibility of killing a hog while deer hunting.

I can see the QHA (Quality Hog Association) chapters starting up soon. Slot sizes for hogs, only 80# thru 140# hogs can be harvested and all others released, maybe tagging and weighing for information......................

LOL

I doubt that you ever see things Progress (or Regress) to that point.

However, there is NO denying that they are a highly desired Game Animal by many. And, many people value them as a trophy animal. There is a Propoganda War being waged to change those views. But, right now, they are very prevelant. That does not mean that those people want to spread them to other properties. They simply want to continue the Tradition of hunting them on properties that they already reside on and have for many, many years.
We have reached a point in Society where we want the Govt to 'fix' everything thing for us. From free meals to Healthcare. Now, some people seem to want them to 'fix' hogs. Well, common sense has been thrown out the window. Instead of spending millions on traps, poisons, contraceptives and tighter Regulations......why not a few fences for farmers and looser Regulations for hunters?

Ozark do you expect to see more deer on Lowndes after the hogs are removed? Yes, that seems safe to assume. We have had a 2 deer a day doe days surrounding Lowndes for 12 out of the last 13 years. Now we are only allowed 1 doe a day during doe days. My guess is that the population of deer will increase. Now, can you significantly decide if the increase in the theoretical deer population is due to the removal of the hogs, decrease in doe days and/or a combination of both????

Are you expecting an increase in Turkey populations. I'm guessing yes. Turkey populations should go up initially, but what happens to populations after the snake population rebounds and the snakes start dining on turkey eggs??? There are so many possible variables involved.

Here's a fun one. How much defecating does a hog do? Just try to calculate the effect of removing tens of thousands of pounds of natural fertilizer that is spread throughout the system due to the hogs dung dispersal system that will no longer be there?

I have no doubt that there are a lot of hunters hunting the Lowndes WMA just because of the pigs. No doubt. Is it a large enough number to really make an economical impact? No idea. Does that pro impact outweigh the negative impact of the damage of the land or other species? No idea.

I honestly wish there was NOT a single feral hog in Alabama. I also wish I was 6' 2" handsome rich and dragging a third track. Neither is going to happen.

I believe the states like CA, TX, LA, MS, AL, GA, OK, AR, and FL will always have pigs and recreational hunting. I don't think it makes any sense to stop recreational hunting in the above states.

Unless they come up with a free golden pill that magically kills all pigs, we will always have pigs in these states.

There are several states trying different approaches. Some are having some luck at removing isolated pockets of feral hogs. Others are still having pigs show up in new places. Just look at the 1982, 2004, and 2015 national mapping information. Don't hit me Danny, but they are getting there somehow.

http://swine.vet.uga.edu/nfsms/information/map2015.htm

http://swine.vet.uga.edu/nfsms/information/map2004.htm

http://swine.vet.uga.edu/nfsms/information/map1982.htm

I love to hunt pigs. It is fun and they are dang good to eat. Just because I have a business that makes money helping landowners with their hog problems does not make me criminal or anti hunter. With the exception of 1, every landowner that I work for called me seeking help. And I help them.

I have never come across any info that pointed to hogs being a desirable species for other game species. The fertilizer thing is interesting but probably a stretch.

Fun one? You have got to be kidding.

How much of that fertilizer gets into the natural water supply?

If you really think it is fun, go with me this weekend. I would like to see you take a drink from a few natural springs on my club with fertilizer in them. LOL

I have never seen hogs poop in their water or food....or their wallows.

But, they might!

And, even if they do, it is of little consequence compared to the large sewage lagoons in every town around.

Economic impact my aching ass. What's the closest hotel to the Lowndes WMA? The reopened casino on 80 or is there one in Hayneville?

Dang sure not anything in White Hall or Lowndesboro. I suppose you could count Forest Home but that's a fair hike from the WMA. The likely spot to sleep if you're hunting there would Selmalia or east Monrgomery.

You might buy gas or beer or snacks from the local dune hopper's store in Lowndesboro but I challenge anyone to show me what kind of ECONOMIC IMPACT hunting on the WMA (I did not say private land, don't quote me chapter and verse about lease prices, seed and fertilizer or the like) really has. Can anybody point it out?

If there is no benefit to Lowndes WMA, let's just close it down.
No need in wasting another dime on it.

Oh there's plenty of benefit to it, I was referring to the "economic impact" someone was referencing earlier.

If the benefits are aesthetic only in Nature with no viable Economic Impact, ditch it!
However, the fact remains that the DCNR depends on the Sale of Licenses. And, in order to hunt a WMA, you must have not only a hunting license, but also a WMA license. Then, you will need gas to get there, food and drinks, ammo, gun or bow, gear, etc. Then, after a successful harvest, many use local processors and such to handle their kill.

The Economic Impact is there. You just have to want to see it.

So does anyone see a potential conflict of interest???

It all adds up.....

Please explain

Sorry I'll try again to say what I mean. Someone previously mentioned LOCAL economic impact as to a reason not to eradicate the pigs. Inferring that lessening the local economic impact of the WMA would be a bad thing. I agree. It would. Anything lessening the inflow of funds to an already impoverished area is not helpful.

What I was referring to was how much LOCAL economic impact it could have, being that there aren't a lot of places near there in Lowndes county to spend money. I'm NOT for closing WMA, eliminating pig hunting, or anything like that. I have expressed here and other threads that I'm not on that bandwagon. Please don't let my friendship with Barry put words in my mouth that I haven't said.

Of interest?????

$$$

Mr. Ditchkoff has a very strong interest in showing that feral hogs are extremely detrimental and to eliminate competition via banning Recreational Hunting.

Do people need pictorial slides?
Or, can they not just see for themselves the financial aspects of this endeavor?

I'm pretty sure most folks agree that wild hogs need to be exterminated, like cockroaches and mosquitoes. Folks pay a lot of money to get rid of cockroaches. There is a market for getting rid of hogs. Seems that trapping or even more scientific methods for getting rid of hogs are marketable. A lot of really big companies have made billions on figuring ways to get rid of bugs. Hogs are just oversized bugs. Looks like Ditchkoff is on the right path to figuring a good affordable way to solve the problem. Maybe farmers can spread some simple feed around field edges and eliminate all the hogs within 20 square miles.

Skinny it looks like Ditchkoff is a genius. But, would he be so sacrificial in giving up his recreational sport hunting of wild hogs for the betterment of the "landscape" if he didn't stand to profit?

I wonder if you would get up and go to work if you didn't get paid?

You might not be from this area but Hog lives don't really matter in our state. They don't. I don't know what better way to put it.

Ozark last name is Crockett. Davy is straight back granddaddy. We have been here for awhile.

Barry, I don't understand your analogy. I promise I hold you personally in very high regard! I am just questioning the fairness of this scientific process, potential for bias and only advocating for sportsman and the environment.

So, looks like Auburn has applied for these patents. Not sure how this helps your Ditchkoff bashing soapbox...hard to profit off a patent you don't hold.

How patents are shared at Auburn with professors

Defend it all you want.....

But, the next Oak Mountain debacle.....do NOT whine about it on here.
Because it is quite evident that 'some' people do not care.

The professor gets some of it, the students and the University get most of it. Looks like a terrible deal....come on man.

Yall really have no idea how bad the SAME people who hate hogs actually hate deer, too......do you?

And, you have no idea, permit or not, how many deer that farmers shoot and leave laying every year......

a part of me finds that amusing!

50% is some?

And the rest is distributed up between Administrators and overhead......

Take it up with AU and choose between your hobby or your ball-team.

LOL

If that is the best you have......I know why you work at Troy and suck up to those at higher institutions!

Because there exists absolutely NO correlation!!

Set the drink down slowly and ease away from the keyboard.......

I didn't read further into it. Yall are saying it's a 50-50 type thing?

Its Wednesday night...no drinking going on here. I'm trying to figure out why ya'll are so worked up about somebody trying to solve the hog problem.

I hear ya Allen. I just find it interesting that hogs are detrimental to EVERY other game and non game animal in Alabama. They are a non-native nuisance animal. Yet, they are being fought for by some that love to hunt them. Heck, I love to hunt them, but I would gladly do without them if they were eradicated from the landscape.

I could easily find something else to do in the great outdoors of Alabama. Fishing, squirrels, doves, turkeys, rabbits, etc.......

We don't have to have the dang hogs. The con is far worse than the pro is good.

I just wonder if at some point down the road we have a train wreck via hogs and disease, would those that are fighting for the life of feral hogs still remember their defense of them.

I'd gladly take 10 percent of potential millions. If you believe your business model would support 400 employees in 10 years then your talking about substantial revenues. In 2009 I was a Senior Environmental Scientist for Thompson Engineering. WE had approximately 450 employees prior to the economic crash. Our revenues were approximately 40 million plus or minus per year.

I just don't understand the cynicism (paging Jallen).

I would think you are aware of the ecological adverse effects hogs have caused on native habitat as well as the public's efforts in wanting hogs gone...From what I have seen there has been extremely reasonable actions taken toward neutralizing the hog problem.

Does the incentive for a person to possibly capitalize on a product automatically taint that individual's good intentions?

I just wonder why things are SO bad everywhere else and EXACTLY the same here as the have been my entire 49 years.
Just because it is new to you does not make it 'bad'!
And, Barry, honestly.....I am NOT picking on you or starting trouble. Back away from the keyboard a few minutes and be honest with yourself.....if hogs are as detrimental as you claim; why in the World did you lease a place with a high population of them??

Thanks barry. About me I have a degree in ecology/environmental science with a second major / degree in chemistry. I found out at 40 that I was the poster child for ADHD. To that extent I graduated with 365 quarter hours in an undergraduate degree (truly sad it takes 200 for a degree). I had 27 classes with laboratories in college. I took approximately 100 hours in math, statistics and Physics classes. I owned an environmental consulting company for 12 years. I was a senior environmental scientist and practicing environmental manager at a top 5 engineering and environmental company for the State of Alabama and after all of that I CANNOT TELL YOU OBJECTIVELY IF GLOBAL WARMING / CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL OR CYCLIC. ... and I honestly don't know if hogs are the apocalypse for the environment. I support sound science where there is no hint of possible bias or conflict of interest. Without such process above all levels of inquiry science is without merit and truth.

I am just gonna let y'all tell my grand-daughter how sorry and lowdown she is.....

fine looking girl and puppies there Grandaddy

Thank You, Troy!
And, Grandaddy is a badge I wear with honor!
I love my Family and a bunch of other friends, hunting buddies and other misfits that have 'showed up' at the house to share in this Sport that I enjoy so much. But, somehow, certain people use that against me and accuse myself and others of things that simply just are not true! I hunt in an area that has had hogs my entire Life. And, I have pics of my grandfather with his dogs that show that they have been here much longer than that. I apologize for my deep emotions that drive me to Defend myself and my Sport. I let them get the best of me at times. However, I have worked hard my entire Life....provided well for my family.....took good care of my dogs......and paid my way to access property. My FNL owns approx. 2000 acres and is one of 8 people on a 8200 acre hunting lease in the big river swamp here. So, when people start talking 'down' to me....I get offended!

When someone isn't truthful with me it takes me a long time, if ever to believe anything they have to say.

Does anyone believe that it's only 15 hogs remaining on 8000 ac of this WMA ?

What you think Barry ?

Although I have not been there lately (I asked permission; not granted)......I do have friends that own property in the vicinity of, even adjoining, Lowndes WMA. From the info I have received; I feel confident that there are more than that there.

Don't know about that either. Maybe their sure enough putting a dent in them. I walked up on a group of several good sized hogs this past August down in a swamp bottom on the north end close to the main road that cuts through the wma. Seen big time hog sign on other areas of the WMA in the past two years.

Don, I find it hard to believe as well. I still work several properties in the area of the Lowndes WMA. I am not seeing tons of pigs but I am seeing more than 15/8000. But, I can't call the man out without being able to prove otherwise.

Danny, I don't have to back away from the keyboard, LOL. I leased that property because it has GREAT potential for growing large numbers of deer and big bucks. I knew there were hogs on it, but I had no idea it had that many. But, I am working on that.

Danny, I suspect your perspective on hogs is different because you have never known a life without them. You say stop looking in the past, but I think you have to do so some. Just look at the 1982 vs 2015 maps. While your life with hogs has remained the same, there are MANY that are having to learn to deal with hogs and they don't like it.

I know you are trying to protect something that you love and has been a part of your entire life. But, with the exception of hog doggers and a few others, everyone else hates them.

Your granddaughter is beautiful. There is noting sorry or low down about her. Just like her grandfather, she has known nothing else.

I know you are trying everything within your power to protect an important part of your families and friend's lives. But, please remember that those that are trying to kill all the hogs are not trying to destroy all recreational hunting. They are simply trying to kill the hogs. There is still plenty of great native species in this great state to hunt.

There are many who despise those other species as well.
This should not be about me having to decide to hunt something else because some people don't like them.
If we go that route, none of us will be able to hunt.

Listen, I did not make them a Game Animal.
I did not make Regulations to protect them.
I did not purchase large tracts of land and restrict access so tightly that they became a huge nuisance.
Like you said, I am simply doing the same things I have always done, albeit in a more Restrictive manner, in the same places that I have always done them. However, my Rights are being threatened through no fault of my own. And, to top it all off.....I am being lumped into a group that is being blamed for what some perceive as the threat of an ecological disaster that has not happened yet, and probably never will!!!!!!

On your last statement, I sure hope you are correct.

Think about this.....hogs have only been considered as Game Animals since the conception of Stock Laws. That is only about 75 years here in AL, more is some States and a LOT less in others.
But, the fact is, hogs have been a part of our ecological system for over 500 years.
They were just not always considered 'wildlife' even though they were free-ranging.

And, fwiw, I would say that there coverage was more widespread and populations more dense when people were actually having to depend on them for food than they are now.

I myself have killed close to 60 hogs on Lowndes WMA, there are more than 60 hogs in each zone....

I'm gonna dig more into this and go pay Chris a visit in the next week or two and see what's really going on.

Just read thru all this. Some random thoughts...

Haven't seen anyone mention domestic hogs getting out and becoming feral. How often/how many? No idea, but can and does happen occassionally. And as mentioned above, they USED to be free roaming...

Do understand how they can be very detrimental to property. I once saw a full Olympic sized soccer field plowed completely up right after getting re-sodded. VERY Expensive. But also limited/spotty. However, if they were on my Ag property, I am sure I would want them gone.

I found a finding in the research very ironic - that they found that the sounders really weren't moving much and had a basic home range. Not surprising at all. We knew basically that way back in the late '80s in Germany. Many would get day old bread and go feed very large herds (100 or more) regularly and routinely. One place near me, you could go out to the same place and same time and reliably see the hogs. Was not uncommon.

For fear of getting throat punched... Hogs got to Biltmore Estate - by being imported there. Some of that herd was then shipped to Hearst and descendants are still on Ft Hunter Ligget. Hunted those. And I do believe that some populations may have been 'imported' for hunting. How prolific? No clue. But I can't believe that it doesn't occassionally happen, or certain has.

Again, I really don't think the hogs are a real problem. And really don't think they will become so - unless maybe there is some catastrophic disease they get and then spread to the domestic population. Then a totally diff story. I know they have been in EU for ages and and not become an environmental catastrophe.

And last. IF they REALLY were all that bad, then change the hunting rules. Like TX has. From what I understand, they have some real problems on Ag land. Helicopter eradication, shooting from vehicles (eradication), add in night hunting, suppressor use (finally legal here now), etc. Let hunters hunt them on WMAs year round with real weapons - not 22s. Right now, all the WMAs are is safe havens for them with a very small percentage of the year.

I don't post on here much but I read it about everyday. I dog hunted hogs for 10+ years from the Apalatacheecola river to the Mobile river and Ft Rucker to Jackson so I know a little bit about it
They will stay close to their home range until pressure moves them out and they find a better food source.
Hunting or trapping them will never remove all the hogs. the more you catch the more pigs the sow will drop Mother Nature.
If you think you can eradicate all the hogs just ask Texas. with all the sources they use they still hogs. as open as that country is and still has hogs they for sure will have problems in these pine plantations of Alabama
So take it for what it's worth that's my opinion

If "texas" would take down all those feeders/bait stations...the pigs would starve to death (or a majority would). My 2 cents. However, here in bama, with the row crops and acorns we have...it won't work the same.

I will never claim to have eradicated all of the hogs from a property. While it might be possible for a short period of time, the hogs from the neighboring properties will move in and take over the location.

As for you statement about the sow replacing the population, she can't if she is dead. That is why I believe we have had the success we have had. We target sows first. This solves two problems. One we are taking out the baby makers and we are taking out the leadership of the sounder. Once the old sows are removed, the rest of the pigs are easier to shoot and/or trap.

I don't want to pressure them off of the property. I want them to stay where I can find them so that I can trap or shoot them. Dead pigs don't breed or come back.

I must admit I get a kick out of watching shows where they are hunting hogs on a "Big Ranch" or "Preserve". Especially those that restrict the hunters to shooting only boars. Why on earth would they do that if their is a hog problem. The truth is they want more hogs on those places. Plain and simple.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. It is their land. But, I don't understand it when they sing the pigs are horrible song and then protect them.

I watched a well known pig hunter talk all about how much damage hogs do to property and then he proceeded to pick up his BOW and make a stalk on 70 pigs and he shot the biggest BOAR in the group. I just shook my head.

Welcome to the conversation. LOL

They have been here for 300 years. I just don't think in our lifetime we will see them gone. the only thing that will eradicate them is the growth of the human population to the point they have no where to hide

Barry - I think we are in vehement agreement!

Any update on this? I come to lowndes only for the hog hunting and am trying to decide if I should make trip again in August. If they have the hunt still waiting on schedule to come out.

I would not hesitate to still come for the hog hunt.

I was in Casey Feed yesterday and the man in charge of trapping hogs was in there getting more trap supplies. I overheard him saying that their hog sightings are way down currently so take that for what it's worth.

Very interesting stuff I think we all have some preconceived ideas about hogs and hog control but look forward to seeing your study results. Keep up the good work!

Steve, you got pm

I hunt land adjacent to the WMA on the south end. I just checked my game cameras today and I had quite a few pics of one of the collared hogs on 2 of my cameras. Scrawny looking hog.

Thanks for the information