Something I think needs addressing

I’ve been managing properties and collecting data long enough to notice some trends in harvest data that I don’t like to see. I wish I had more concrete data and evidence, but I simply don’t. Don’t exactly know where I’d obtain it either, because you’d need average antler scores per age class for decades over large areas. To my knowledge this don’t exist.

The question I feel like needs answering is this: What impact is legalized baiting, cell cameras and season extensions having on age structure and sex ratios? What I think I’m seeing is with the increased use of cellular cameras, a decrease in buck age structure is occurring. I’m not seeing or recording as many bucks in the 5+ age class. I think I know why. With increased cellular camera usage over bait, it has become quite easy to take deer in the 2-4 yr age class, that were somewhat protected previously. Not protected in the sense of any regulation. But buck harvests in general, used to be a random occurrence. You scouted, located sign and shot whatever buck excited you on that particular hunt. Now, for most AL hunters a 115-125” buck that’s middle aged is a deer they can’t pass up. A lot of these deer used to slip through the cracks. They are NOT any longer, because they’re on someone’s camera, somewhere, if not on multiple cameras. They are generally hunted until they’re dead. What impacts will that have long term? We know having bucks in the population that are older has increased benefits to the rut. It’s also an incentive for those desiring to kill a trophy. If the middle aged segment of the population is increasingly targeted over large landscapes, the breeding benefits of older age class bucks and incentives to manage property could easily cause lack of interests or desire to continue spending resources in AL. I know some of the taxidermists around don’t have as many older age class bucks coming in either. Racks that used to hold several 140-170” bucks a season are now holding a bunch of 110-130” racks. The ONLY difference is age class of the bucks brought in. Genetics hasn’t changed. However, the expression of those genetics has, as a result of harvesting younger deer. I think we are high grading as a consequence of technological advances and permitted baiting.

This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately because I see it being replicated in several areas.

I can’t answer your question but the obvious way to fix it is drones ,air bows, and letting loose pen raised-deer with superior genetics.

Matt I am glad you addressed this because you are absolutely spot on !

There's alot more hunters in the woods now days and they look at it as if I don't shoot it my neighbor will. I've noticed areas I've hunted for yrs that the population seems to have drastically decreased. We use to do alot of dog hunting in geneva cty. It was nothing to see 100 deer in the afternoon out riding the dirt roads dragging ditches to find fresh tracks for the next morning. Now days you ride the same roads and your lucky to see one standing in the same fields we use see 15-20 deer in.

The season is too long and we harvest too many bucks IMO.

Even with buck limit.

You will always have tow camps meat hunters and trophy hunters / game managers and that will never change so knowing this all you can do is put restrictions and hope most abide I’m personally in favor of one buck per season with at least four points in one side to be a legal deer. I know it’s not perfect solution but nothing is

Matt I think you are definitely inline with your thinking. I can tell you for a fact most deer that are 3 or 4 and even older bucks can be picked off with the use of cell cameras over bait.

Last season when we had a camera share program with the club members we had several bucks killed that otherwise would have most likely slipped through cracks. Several of these bucks were very nice 4 yr olds that would have benefited from another birthday or two.

How do you propose we resolve the issue??.......Kill less bucks…..produce more of them…..or outlaw baiting again?? I’m afraid the last one probably isnt a true option…..hell I’m not sure the second choice is very realistic either……If choice #1 is the only option that means a new buck limit.....I'm a fan of increasing "supply"

More hunters. What effect does that have on the things youre talking about? I think more hunters is a bad thing. But im a tree climber not a biologist and i have not studied the situation, only tried to figure out why im seeing what im seeing.

Stopping the feeding would save me a bunch of $$$ 🤣🤣

The feeding has helped kill deer

I sometimes cutt my cameras off for months - hav not run one in about 2 months at my big field

Hope I got a 8 year old buck around this year - he usually shows up about this time of year

U could b on to something MBrock

I agree with everything you said, and I’m guilty of it to a certain extent as well. I may not kill them over bait, but that’s where my cell cameras are and tell me the general area I need to be hunting.

A little off topic, but another thing that needs to be addressed is enforcing the 3 buck limit. Currently I can purchase my license online and print 3 copies. Now I have 9 “tags” instead of 3. We have zero game warden presence around me and everyone knows it, unfortunately.

I would think if you wanted to see more deer a limit on does would be in order. Can’t have a herd if you ain’t got the mommas to make em.

The answer to your question is to limit the doe harvest where people can’t kill 12 or more per year. seriously I have hunted some areas that can support high numbers of deer harvest and be ok but many areas don’t need many does killed at all and more and more people I talk to seem to be realizing this. Not every area or even every property are the same and can’t be managed as such which you know better than I. I do put out bait as do most of the people I know and I run several cellular cameras but none of them are fail proof. I honestly feel that bait and cellular cameras save more bucks than they get killed because people want the biggest. My bait and cellular camera saved a 10 point this afternoon. Bait and cellular camera’s are a tool just like many other things in our arsenal and any of them can be abused and most people with any sense can tell when things are not going in the right direction. Some people just don’t care and they going to do what they going to do regardless. Common sense plays a huge role in deer hunting just like in everyday life.

I would also like to address the issue I see with the 3 buck limit. Back when you could kill however many bucks you wanted during the season and no I don’t have any data to support this but I feel like the 3 buck limit gives hunters something to strive for in turn actually making hunters that would otherwise maybe kill one buck try and kill 3. Of course there’s always going to be the people that kill way more than they are allotted. But I feel like the 3 buck limit makes the average hunter kill more than they normally would.

I think the can of worms with baiting is open and where are the bucks? You just need to look at the blood trailing network for the amount of gutshot deer during archery. It is live grocery harvesting as that summer pattern they are just too susceptible to harvest. I am severly limited. I have one to go which I intend to be a good one. One day I will actually use a game camera but watching 30 to 40 deer rotate coming into bait with 10 to 15 or so bucks every 2 hours is really really different from all but a few glory days spent beneath and English White Oak 2 to 3 decades ago.

Personally the game cameras around me really demonstrate how much I sucked at hunting. But watching the behavior where deer will stand on one side in the wide arse open relatively speaking and spend 10 minutes to want to approach from downwind that is also wide open is just comical at times to watch.

Matt. I agree with you. Technology and baiting has changed hunting forever. We would all be lying to ourselves if we didn’t think $$ had a lot of things to do with the decisions made in this state. That truth is on so many levels. Especially if you have hunted in other states. Alabama just seems to squander our resources! All of our programs here seem so half assed! We don’t have a lot of public hunting areas. Not like many states do. And game wardens??? What a joke! I know the game wardens in Jefferson county. They are great people but there is 2 of them!!! Yes 2!!! I can’t imagine myself and one other person trying to stop poaching, spotlighting, game checking and all of the other BS in the whole county! It’s just crazy. With all the money being spent in this state on hunting, there should be about 10 wardens and 10 biologist in EACH county across the state! Then we would have accurate geographic info in the herds in each area. I personally want to trust a professional! Someone that knows more than me! Someone who has a plan. But unfortunately in Alabama. I just don’t see that happening. Our DCNR is laughable! I don’t know why but they just are. Game harvest, statistics, human behaviors, trends, technology, effects of baiting & many other things should be studied and the results should be published. Then we all could be educated on what we should be doing.

We will always have slob hunters that will shame us all. But to address the concerns you have, it must start with gathering facts! Then implementing a plan that can improve the situation. Then share that plan with the public. I believe a lot of people will listen. Yes, many people in the 1990’s and 2000’s got burned with the over harvest of does but just like the science of medicine changes regularly, the science of deer management changes too. We need to be informed of what to do to maximize our resources in this area.

I think you will see some clubs start to tighten their buck restrictions.
At my club we shoot 3.5 year old bucks or better. That’s been the rule for years. It’s a small group of guys and we are discussing going to 4 or older on bucks next year.
I know of another club that went to a ( 2 out of 3) criteria for bucks this year. I would think that other clubs are having the same discussions if they are seeing more high graded 2 year olds and 3 year olds getting shot.

I think all of this technology has brought people into hunting that would have never put all the work and effort into hunting with uncertain results of their time. I don’t know what hobbies these guys had before but it wasn’t hunting. I don’t believe season length is too long as has been said before you don’t have to hunt everyday or shoot everything you see. Alabama has a huge population of guys who work out of State or even the Country who are benefited by the long season as they are able to hunt more than one time in a season. I do believe we have an overall deer population problem which I believe is from the massive slaughter of does.

Matt. One thing you have to figure in .

MONEY ,,,,,

People now spend a lot of money to hunt. They want a return on the money. They're not gonna set in the woods 2 ,,, 3. Or 4 years waiting on a true trophy buck . Plus a lot of guys only get to hunt a few days each a year.

Hunting is changing its turning into shooting.

You have clubs that have rules but kids kill what ever. You can't manage like that. You let 4 kids kill a young buck or two look what's it takes out of the herd. Same people that allow this bitch about
What the guy next door kill.

Ever body here reads the same stuff we read if they can't see where the $ucking up is they never will.
R
Ever body in here knew when they permitted illegal baiting ever body with 5 ac was gonna bait and kill bucks , same with extending the season

Now I don't care how people hunt long as it legal.

And as I've said more rules we get the worse it gets

One thing that makes my funny bone tingle is the trophy group yelled less does were needed to fix the rut now they yelling more does are needed even though we have fewer bucks

But with all that typed , I think you thinking is spot on

OK , you guys getting bucks on cam and they're getting killed to young . Why are they , you have pictures to look at showing they are to young .

You know pictures can be used to show what not to kill.

He'll

Make ever body shoot a 243 so they have to see the deer broadside lol

Not just cell cameras, but regular cameras are ruining it. Social media and YouTube have given people the desire to get a buck and get “Likes” “”Subscribers” or even go after sponsorships. You can see plenty of pictures posted in “Trophy” groups of 2 1/2 yr old deer where the picture is taken at certain angles to make the deer look a lot bigger than it is.

The tools (cell cameras and bait) have gotten lazier, easier and better and reflects on kills. Folks mimicking shows with hit list etc….and a 115 inch looks pretty good to most.

A few things that bother me is using cell cams to kill deer and turkey. Cell phone sends a pic and off they go to kill it. It’s happened several times that I know of and more so than not.

Instant gratification

We just want to go hunting and have fun. We want to keep doing the things that are working for us. If we want to run cameras on our property that’s our business. If I want to dump a truck load of corn at each one of our stands that’s my business. If we have a first time hunter come to our place and they want to show a fork horn or even a spike for his/her first buck, we what them to be able to and then have the chance to kill a good one the next day. Will they do it? Probably not but that chance is there for them. I will agree that the season is way to long but you don’t have to hunt everyday. We know and hunt the best times on our place. We know that after the 2nd week in December till the 2nd week in January is a really slow time on our place so we hardly hunt during that time. It allows the pressure to be lowered on the place. Like I said in another post. Y’all need to worry about what you can control and leave what you can’t alone. We do not try to negatively affect our neighbors and if anything we are doing does, all they have to do is talk to us and we’ll work together to try to resolve it. Other then that, mind your own business and leave us alone.

As a taxidermist I've seen better quality racks this year than I have in the past 15 yrs.

20 years ago there where 5 clubs with in a 10 minute drive from my house that had 3000-5000 acres. Now there's 1 club with 2300 acres with almost 50 members... storal of the mory is less land and more hunting pressure. Plus lease prices are so high folks feel like they have to kill a buck to get their money's worth. Any buck.

The answer to your question is that most old mature bucks easily pattern hunters around the corn piles. I’m not a biologist but baiting has been legal in Louisiana for as long as I can remember and not many old bucks are killed at a corn pile. However the younger buck will dang sure feed at them regularly which makes them an easy target. That 100” 3yr old buck that some think is to small to shoot may be a monster to someone else. That’s the great thing about hunting. We have that choice to shoot that deer or not. We feed on our place and we have lots of mature bucks on camera. Will we kill those bucks at the corn pile. Hell no!! But when I’m off in the woods on the side of the main trail that all the does use to go the corn and he follows them or skirts around down wind in late January, hopefully I’ll be in the right spot to get him. Most of our guys are content sitting on the corn pile watching the younger bucks with the hopes of a mature buck walking out. It rarely happens but sometimes it does. That’s their choice and if it makes them happy then I’m happy for them. I’m just as happy for the guy that killed the 6yr old 150” or the guy that killed the 100” 3 yr old. Both are trophies to them.

I’m not trying to define what a trophy is to anyone. I’m asking whether a reduction in older age class deer is going to impact hunting’s future. I think it will.

I strongly disagree with how easy it is to kill mature deer on bait marshmud. It’s very easy in early season and in rut.

. I personally wish they would 1or 2 buck limit and shorten rifle season to month of January only or 4 weeks around rut because parts of state is different times of rut. Limit doe days. Only thing they will not touch is baiting because I believe it brings in to much money and will be here forever unfortunately.

I haven’t seen that be the case up here.

what were the rules 30 yrs ago, buck a day and doe days now it's a doe a day and 3 bucks/season and we see a decrease in numbers. My rant on this is we will chastise a hunter behind his back for killing a spike/4pt because he could grow up to be a potential B/C, P/Y deer but pat someone on the back for killing the DOE that produced that buck because he was meat hunting. How many future bucks are not produced by killing the Doe? Do know there are other variables. Quit killing the mommas.

Could not have said it better. The last damn thing I want is somebody at the state level telling me what's best for me. I was one of the suckers who purchased the lifetime licenses for my children/grand children that was supposed to cover everything for the rest of their lives. Hence the name "Lifetime". Years later let's add baiting privileges, reef privileges, etc. Do I trust the people who would make these decisions? No. Manage your own properties and I'll manage mine.

Not on our place. On occasion we will kill a mature buck over bait but not very often. It would probably be a lot different if there was just a couple of us hunting the place. All I’m gonna say is someof our guys don’t pay attention to detail like some of us do. It only takes one screw up with a mature buck and the chance at killing him over bait goes out the window. Also we have so much natural food the bucks don’t really hit the corn till after most stuff is dead in the woods. So we don’t see many mature bucks in the early season. Now if we have an acorn crop I know where I’ll be in early season.

There are always going to be plenty of older age class deer running around. I’m not sure I follow the logic of cell cams means more kills unless you mean people are killing them at night when they get a picture of them because that’s still when most of my bucks are on camera. Most people hunt on small acreage, they just go hunt their spots regardless. Now if you want to argue baiting is potentially causing more young bucks to be killed, ok. But not really sure I agree with the cell cam aspect. Cameras have been used for years well before cell cams came out.

I don’t think either have anything to do with a decline in numbers or sizes. I know it os a totally different deer but look at other places in the us. Baiting has been legal for a LONG time. And you think they use cell cameras too? You betcha. However, they onky get one buck per season so they make it count!!!! Our liberal season and liberal bag limit is the main culprit. Plus like others have mentioned, inability to enforce laws.

I honestly can’t remember ever “tagging” out. I just don’t hunt enough or have the privilege to hunt in an area that gives me the opportunity.

I do like the length of the season since I have to work and have kids and family that lives out of town, etc. I get more opportunities to hunt. But some people are wearing it out and killing just to kill. I’m not for more government control, but some people can’t help themselves

If anything a cell cam or any cam for that matter should keep someone from shooting a younger deer. Lot easier to know a specific deer than to see it for the first time and make a split second decision to shoot.

Dang facebook and cell cam's, everyone is a hunter now days...soon as that 125" is on cam in daylight, he's getting hunted the next day...Folks can't let that 120" walk cause the neighbor will kill him if I dont.... And then you throw corn in the mix and that hot doe comes to eat dragging that 3 yr old buck behind her...Boom, he gone....Anyone can shoot a nice deer with the technology thats out there today IMO...Nothing you can do cause the state aint gonna give up that 15 bucks, and cell cams do a lot of hunting and gather intel for folks that normally wouldnt get out of bed and go that day, so those 3yr olds aren't slipping thru the cracks like they used to...Just my opinion...

Cameras…..have definitely made people hunt when they may not of. Hear it all the time (got a good on coming it at 3:?? I’ll be there) (got a target Buck) these deer may of never been seen.
Corn….. Made it easier deer will get in a pattern learn the noise of a spinner. (Feeder goes of at 6:20 deer start showing up 6:30.)
People want to hunt where they can seethe corn pile and the camera.
Scouting for deer is a lost art with the times. Feed-em they will be there.

We had a guy this year in our club that shot a 2 1/2 yr old deer during bow season. Our club is 4 1/2 or better. When he told me about it he said “I would have sworn it was that big one that was coming in with that group and I had one opportunity to get the shot off.” Never saw the horns, just let the arrow fly without being sure what it was.

You can chalk it up to cell cameras, or just bring an idiot. I prefer to go with the latter.

This is a very good and informative thread/discussion. Aldeer.com is great and it is made great by its posters. Here are some early morning thoughts. I apologize if they duplicate what may already posted in this thread.

I likewise have several feeders, box blinds and run a mix of cell and non-cell cameras. I run several cell cameras all year. Here are a few of my observations that maybe will help a young hunter.
1) The most important data that I get is from salt licks in the summer. The bucks hit these often without any hunting or human pressure. Data from these cameras tell me what deer I have on the property and most of our target bucks are based on this data.
2) Mature bucks do not like shooting houses or feeders. We will get some mature buck activity at feeders in the summer, but once the acorns fall - they leave. In the fall and during hunting season, 95% of pics will be does and yearling bucks on the feeders. If you want to get pics of the mature bucks, move your cameras away from the feeder and shooting house and you will find them.
3) Cell cameras allow us to hunt smarter and more efficient. I look at my pre-dawn cell pics before heading to the woods and use this info to steer me towards a hunting area on our property.
4) Feeders located out in the woods with plenty of cover nearby are the feeders most likely to catch a buck. The older bucks (3+ years old) will only drop by a feeder located in a food plot at night - unless he is following a hot doe.
5) If you feed too much, the deer will go nocturnal. Our feeders located in the woods go off at 7:30 AM and 4 PM and only throw out a little corn. Feeders in food plots only go off at 4 PM. AM feeders feed a few deer but mostly turkeys. Coons probably consume 50% of the corn.
6) Older bucks (3+ years) will seldom visit a food plot during the day. If you desire to kill a mature buck - hunt away from the food plot
7) When the rut hits, you will find bucks that were not on your property during the summer. They seldom stay. Likewise you will see bucks that are resident bucks (during spring, summer and fall) that will migrate away from your property. If they do not get harvested, they will typically return in late January or early February.
8) During the rut, you will sometimes catch a good buck on the edges of food plots. Try to make your food plots with soft edges (a little cover). The bucks will follow and scout for does, but they will sometimes hang out in the soft edge where they can be picked off by a sharp shooting hunter.
9) If you establish a successful hunt as seeing deer - hunt a food plot. If you desire to harvest a mature buck - stay in the woods and only hunt a stand when the wind is in your favor.
10) Except during the rut, if the wind is blowing > 10 mph - stay in bed.
11) Ozonics and EverCalm are great tools. I put Evercalm on my boots this weekend and made the cardinal sin of walking right down the middle of a food plot. I watched 6 does and 1 small buck graze all over the area where I walked and not once did they show any signs of detecting my presence.

I don’t see future restrictions on baiting- state likes the money, or the cell cams- the companies that are making money lobby the rule makers to support their money stream.
I think a more localized management plan over the current state wide type plan could help. I would also support a 2 buck limit, required check in with stiff penalties for violations. The three buck limit has brought improvements over what we had before. I think it could be even better. I don’t know if it’s still managed the same but Tennessee seemed to have some good management rules at one time. When a Hunter got his first buck tag and a doe tag or two. After those were filled and checked in , they would be able to get another buck tag. Something like that could have positive effects. The hunter would have to be more selective on his buck choices and would have to participate in and population control objectives in order to have another buck.

We wanted people to shoot older deer, and now that they are, we are worried that can cause a problem? There will still be older bucks survive. Personally, I believe, if there is a problem, it will be in high trading. Studies have shown that will decrease size of racks.

This is the positive part of cell cams. The pics can be sent to every member so they can educate themselves on deer not to shoot. Like this one.

You take away hunting over bait a lot of hunters will stop hunting because it will be to hard for them… I called and aske a guy in the club if he was hunting this weekend and his answer was No I don’t have any corn out..

Yep!!! We have some that won’t hunt certain stands because there’s no corn or no pictures of bucks on the cameras. I just tell them that leaves more room for me. It’s some of our best areas. As long as they aren’t affecting me they can hunt how they want.

12 week gun season + legal baiting + highly sophisticated monitoring devices + social media.

Nope, no way any problems will ever come up.

Solid post by 1984dog

I think social media is the problem. People high grade bucks just so they can post a picture of a 9 or 10 pt (may only weigh 150#, but they take a zillion pictures and post the best one).

Cell cameras and feeders definitely make it easier. I'm guilty of using the cameras to tell me where I have a good chance of my son killing a good buck. I am also guilty of letting my son kill younger bucks (I believe firmly it letting kids have fun hunting), but in return I haven't shot a buck since he started shooting. Also, every 5 acre tract has a corn pile and a cell camera. The days of bucks living for years and never being seen by a hunter are gone.

I wish I could thumbs up a post, cause I would give Matt’s post a thumbs up! Didn’t read the rest of you heathens posts though.

Tennessee has never been like that.

They simply have a buck limit like Alabama. Went from 11 to 2 then to 3 and now back to 2

Except where the idiots implemented the CWD zone and are destroying decades of good management.

When you look at the states that have the most Pope & Young or Boone records, they do not allow rifle hunting during the rut. Some of these states are shotgun/muzzle loaders only when the gun season opens (after the rut). Illinois does not allow supplemental feeding or mineral licks. For Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Illinois, and others if you want to hunt the rut, you have to do it with archery/crossbow. The gun seasons are after the rut and only last a few days at a time. Indiana has really gained some ground for harvesting trophy bucks and they did this by placing a one-buck limit (even residents) for the year regardless of season (archery, muzzle loader or gun). These states also have large agriculture activity (corn and beans), good soil and superior genetics. So combining all the above, these states have great conditions for growing big and mature deer. Many of these states (on regional levels) coordinate with the farmers and implement antler restrictions (140" or better) so that they have a mature buck structure. Bottom line is that bucks typically do not reach trophy status until they are 4+ years or older.

Down south, we grow mostly pine trees and pot as our cash crops. We shoot deer by the numbers and they seldom reach their 4th birthday. They don't get big until they get old. I heard one biologist say that trophy bucks are as rare is producing a Michael Jordon. It is hard to find a "Michael Jordan" buck down south, but in parts of Illinois, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin and Nebraska - you can find them on every corner. If you want to regularly harvest trophy bucks down south, you better aggressively take out does, let many bucks walk and make sure you have quality food for them year round. To many places down south plant food plots in the winter. To grow big and healthy deer, you have to feed them good food when they are growing antlers - which is in the spring/summer.

This.

Something you need to take into consideration in farm country that I hunt you get the numbers up to high and the farmer is going to convince the land owner that the deer is costing him money. There ain’t no telling how many deer have been shot during the summer in the last 20 years and left laying, Thankfully the chandlers don’t do it but a lot of the others do.

Not a taxidermist….but I agree.

Season is definitely way too long. The droughts we've been having in the late summer and fall is not helping. Our racks are looking good, though.

2nd the solid post by Solid post by 1984dog, Makes me think I need to quit setting off my feeders during the AM.

I am first and foremost a meat hunter. I do my best to kill 5 bucks a year, several of those I want to be smaller bucks. That way I know they are young and tender. I would rather kill a yearling spike than some old messed up rack. Does are difficult to age unless they are really old and nasty.

Yessir! I try to quit this place, but it’s good entertainment.

The amount of information available at ones fingertips doesn’t help either.

Honestly I think the biggest culprit is those that put in time and don’t get to squeeze the trigger enough. Their personal reputation to tag out is at stake even seasoned hunters fall to these thoughts.
Itchy trigger finger syndrome.

Still clinging to back in the day of getting to say killed 2 8s and a 9 or whatever.

Back when I actually pursued deer I’d have friends tell me they got to kill something, not look at them. Then they’d complain they never kill big bucks and I’d say a lot times those big ones are a minute behind those little ones.

If and when I go this year I’ll kill whatever size I want. Haven’t killed one in 6 years. I won’t kill a small one after that though.

One more trend I’ve noticed. They’ll shoot that 2.5 yr old 8 or 9 and let that 2.5 yr old 3,4,5 or 6 walk by numerous times. Kinda high grading in my opinion.

Here is your answer:

Feeders have made it easier to kill 2 and 3 year old deer.... We never had many 4 and 5 year old deer to begin with... Now, there are just less. Don't make things harder than they need to be.

If you don't have any 4-5 year old deer what happened to them? They are dead - that's what happened to them.

Also, most deer are not actually aged correctly. We are quick to look at at buck and say it's 3 years old when it maybe 2 or 4 years old.

I can assure you of 1 thing... If you don't have any 4-5 year old deer on your property... "too many does" DID NOT shoot your bucks and take them to the deer processor. That's was you, your hunting buddies or your neighbors.

Something I didn't see mentioned in the talk about older age class bucks is natural mortality. I read an interesting study several year ago that stated something like 25% of bucks > 3.5 years old on a property die of natural causes each year following the rut. The greater out of whack the buck to doe ratio is and the buck age structure is the greater the loss. Reasons are lack of nutrition during winter season, disease based on the deer being 'Run down' and a weakened immunity system and injuries sustained due to fighting, etc. The longer the rut (months) the greater the likelihood that a buck will become susceptible to natural mortality. Can't remember where I read it or who the author of the study was, maybe MBrock or someone else has seen the same type of research.

Stop it!!! Don’t bring common sense into this!! You know it’s always the neighbors or the big club down the road. Always someone else’s fault. I don’t give 2 chits what my neighbors do on their side of the line. The deer on our property is only ours until it steps across the line. Then it becomes his deer to do what he wants with.

I killed lot bigger deer before corn an cameras . Nowadays a half decent hunter can kill bout whatever they want with today’s technology. The woodsmen skill I learned from years ago is not needed today . I do see clubs trying to grow bigger deer, but none has year round plots or get rid of the trigger finger buddies that hunt with them. Not really serious. Shorten season an get rid of corn would be my answer to slow down the slaughter of young bucks but that will NEVER happen in state of bama. It’s a cash crop an they know it .

Don’t start talking like that overland. People get upset when you mention correcting sex ratios. They like having those piles of does at their food plots and feeders to draw them bucks in.

But yes the longer and more drawn out the rut is the higher mortality. Facts. Not theories. It’s true.

What does other people killing deer over corn have to do with you not killing bigger deer. Did them hunting over corn change the way you used to hunt? I can promise you they are not killing all the older deer. I hate to break it to you but feeding corn in Alabama is not a new thing. I know a ton of people, resident and non residents that have been hunting over corn since the 80s and when it was a buck a day they shot every buck they saw. I know some big landowners that had corn piles big enough they could be seen from a satellite. Heck when we got our place, one of the first things we did was get all the feeder out of every plot and the woods. Sure there is more people doing it now but people hunting over corn is not new. This looks like it’s going the way of the dog hunters. The dog hunters got run out now it’s the master baiters and camera runners. Y’all gonna bitch and whine enough until more restrictions are gonna be put on hunters.

what about all these "coyote hunters" with these thermal scopes. I hear more single shots at night now than I ever have.

I disagree. Those of us with flexible work schedules can easily use a cell camera to our advantage. If I get a new buck that shows up 2 days in a row during the week, guess where I’m going to be on day 3! Before cell cameras I wouldn’t have known that until the following weekend when I got up there to pull SD cards. By then, that buck could have bred the doe and moved off my property again.

They will eventually show up during the daylight, and the cell camera allows you to know that instantly without having to leave scent checking SD cards.

I use the cameras to try NOT to shoot 2-3 year olds, he's saying more of those are being killed. The cameras aren't the issue, it's the people pulling the trigger. If anything, my cell pics have made me hunt less this year!!

We use cameras as an educational tool. Once see differences between the body of a mature buck vs a younger buck it makes it real easy to identify a mature deer. Also most of us at our camp are in competition to kill the biggest buck so when the cameras show us the big mature bucks, the nice younger bucks stand a way better chance to get a pass. It’s all in fun but no one wants to be the one that has to buy the winner a cup of coffee.

I disagree, our cell pics are helping us increase our age structure.
Can they be used to kill every deer on the property? Absolutely, but baiting and the cell cams have done nothing but help us. We know what we have using an area and that allows us to hold off on pulling the trigger.
I do agree though that if someone wanted to just kill deer then they can use the bait and cams for putting a hurt on them

That makes a lot of sense……Start a thread about being concerned that there are too many bucks being shot and then suggest the solution is to shoot more does to balance it out.....

Matt has never suggested shooting does statewide indiscriminately.

He’s not the only one seeing the issue though and it very well could be region specific. But I can tell you I’m giving up a lease this year because of the issue. We have not shot a doe on this 600 acres in 10 years. Based on cameras we have 2 bucks on the property. A spike and a 3 year old broke up 8. It’s gone down hill quick….

And I’ll post up the lease details closer to time so nobody jumps into this money pit

I don t really care if people feed or not . Or use cameras .

If you have too many does, the bucks will not run scrapes or actively chase does. The big buck simply tells the doe, "Baby, if you want me you will have to wait in line. Right now you are #17 on the list - so you might want to check back in a couple days. Right now, I'm in recovery mode and will be servicing the next doe in about 10 minutes. Come find me as I will be in my secure sanctuary - I will not come looking for you" LOL but true.

I don’t think folks get it and may never will……Due to coyotes now being prevalent on the landscape it creates a situation where there is only a finite amount of habitat where does are able to reproduce successfully…..Doe group numbers are limited by habitat. Their numbers will only grow until that space is filled and then it will flat line……At that point you are at maximum buck production. The key then is to moderate the number of bucks being taken out annually so that there are more left over. We need to produce more bucks….not reduce doe numbers.

Good thread. A lot of complex issues here. I’m not about addressing season length or legality of baiting, cameras etc. We should keep hunting as free as possible. I do find the topic of cell cams or game cameras in general interesting. I can see how it enables a half decent hunter to harvest a buck more effectively. Again, I’m not proposing that this tech be made illegal. I will say that if it’s true that technological advances from scent control to cameras to drones have a detrimental effect on trophy populations then get ready for things to go downhill fast as even todays tech will be archaic in a decade. No telling what is around the corner to make things even easier to kill bucks. Personally I like to leave people alone and do my thing. I’ve resisted the temptation to use cameras from day one because I enjoy the mystery of not knowing exactly what’s out there. At same time, I appreciate why people like to use them and don’t have a criticism of the phenomenon per se. For me, I like scouting, reading sign, terrain, weather, winds, thermals, moon phases, rut timing etc. If the deer population in general gets poor in this state then maybe legal changes would be warranted. The trophy population is not an optimal place to start making more rules as our freedom shouldn’t be based on trophies. Hunting has always been about harvesting meat. Today it’s that and its a way to keep mankind connected to the true nature of what it means to be a meat eater. Taking a life.

There’s no doubt cameras give us and advantage because I have used them as stated above. Trigger control is important with use of cameras. I had 4 8 points behind the house that were probably 3 years old that I have let go as I have way bigger so I have no reason to pull the trigger. Neighbors may have killed some or car or whatever as I’ve only seen 2 of the 4 lately. Nothing I can do about that but just hope they make it. Just my situation and do whatever makes u happy. I like getting my pictures but also can judge pretty close to their age and hunt that way. Some people see horns and get very excited and once u get up close it’s a little disappointing as I’ve done it myself years ago. They look much bigger on the hoof at a distance but knowing what u got to start with to me helps go no that’s just that or this deer. I’ve never shot a buck over corn but it does keep the doe close so eventually u should see the bucks so yes corn helps but people not all have always put corn out before it was legal.

I like messing with you sometimes CNC. 😂

Look, I do not now, nor have I ever, promoted the wholesale slaughter of does anywhere. I’ve been to a lot of properties and I promise if you talk with any of them, I’ve never recommended anything they thought was unreasonable or not in line with reaching their objectives. There are times doe harvest is necessary to correct skewed herd dynamics. Applied wrong, it can be a disaster. Applied in the right context, it’s great. I think you take everything I say to the extreme and I do the same to you. One FACT that can not be argued is populations heavily in favor of does are often stagnant and bucks suffer higher mortality from breeding does that go through 2-3 estrous cycles. Killing does in that scenario is not to bring the herd within carrying capacity (as I think it’s much higher than some realize), it’s simply to promote a tighter breeding window, thus ensuring all fawns are dropped in a tighter time frame, increasing survival, AND bucks recover more easily. It’s simple really. And science backs it up. Properties being managed annually back it up.

This right here is part of the problem. The buck limit in Alabama is 3. Not 5. Glorified poacher is all you are if you ask me.

Mbrock, I am not meaning disrespect when I say this, but I think part of the problem is what the "biologists" as a whole tell those of us looking to improve our hunting properties. I still go back to the one who came and looked at my lease and said we needed to kill 15 doe's. Then they would age the jawbones and make a recommendation. We lease timber co property, and we can't effectively manage it the way we would like. We do the best we can do, but that's all. We don't even kill 15 deer a year. So trying to get a 1 to 1 ratio means a wholesale doe slaughter.

I think baiting hurts. The amount of fussing we heard last year when we said you can't put corn on a green field was loud. Some of the guys got it, but the lazy hunters, not so much. I think the yote population hurts. I am seeing more lone doe's this year than I have seen in the past.

I haven't seen very many deer this year. I usually was good to see 50 or so a year. I bet I haven't seen 15 this year. I haven't hunted as much, and we had loggers all summer, so I could see where that has things jacked up a bit.

Personally I think the doe season needs to be changed. If you have to many, get on Dmap.

My focus now is on making sure I have plenty of high quality forage for the doe's during the spring;.

Matt has never suggested shooting does statewide indiscriminately.

He’s not the only one seeing the issue though and it very well could be region specific. But I can tell you I’m giving up a lease this year because of the issue. We have not shot a doe on this 600 acres in 10 years. Based on cameras we have 2 bucks on the property. A spike and a 3 year old broke up 8. It’s gone down hill quick….

And I’ll post up the lease details closer to time so nobody jumps into this money pit[/quote]
If you have too many does, the bucks will not run scrapes or actively chase does. The big buck simply tells the doe, "Baby, if you want me you will have to wait in line. Right now you are #17 on the list - so you might want to check back in a couple days. Right now, I'm in recovery mode and will be servicing the next doe in about 10 minutes. Come find me as I will be in my secure sanctuary - I will not come looking for you" LOL but true.[/quote]


What does do you speak of?? We have t shot does on this property because there were not enough to shoot. This was after extensive camera studies and help from biologist. We SHOULD have been able to shoot a couple this year but the population has dropped significantly. This is a known big buck area as the genetics are great. But over the past 3 years it keeps getting progressively worse. To the point I’m ready to give it up.

Shorten season a little bit as well as put a minimum on antler points. The young ones come out first and get wacked. Young kids/first deer I think it’s ok to shoot whatever you want the first time. There’s obviously some variable that need to be addressed but I think it’s clear the season is wayyyy too long (at least by 2 weeks)

If you have too many does, the bucks will not run scrapes or actively chase does. The big buck simply tells the doe, "Baby, if you want me you will have to wait in line. Right now you are #17 on the list - so you might want to check back in a couple days. Right now, I'm in recovery mode and will be servicing the next doe in about 10 minutes. Come find me as I will be in my secure sanctuary - I will not come looking for you" LOL but true.[/quote]


What does do you speak of?? We have t shot does on this property because there were not enough to shoot. This was after extensive camera studies and help from biologist. We SHOULD have been able to shoot a couple this year but the population has dropped significantly. This is a known big buck area as the genetics are great. But over the past 3 years it keeps getting progressively worse. To the point I’m ready to give it up. [/quote]

Sounds like a lease I’ve got in Winston County. I think us not shooting does for 3 years really hurt the lease even though we didn’t necessarily see any increase in does. We saw all our mature bucks leave, a lot of young bucks showed up and a lot of coyotes showed up. This year we just wanted to remove deer all through the age structure. We killed some does, a spike and a 4 year old buck on this particular property. I’m hoping we see some benefit from killing some does off but it took 3 years to get bad, I figure it will take just as long if not more to get right

If I twere to be reincarnated as a buck, that 600 acre lease has my name on it😂

Its not about promoting wholesale slaughter…….Its about promoting the idea that this property should take 15 and the next one 25 and the plantation 125 and so on and so forth. The idea that “proper” management should include annual doe harvesting is just false. There are only a small amount of situations around the state where does actually NEED to be taken…….There’s a little bit bigger percentage where a few CAN be taken…….. But there are a LOT of places where not shooting any at all is ok and likely the best choice for most……The narrative needs to change away from every club and property shooting “X” amount of does and go to a system where most people are playing the game very conservatively.

This idea of doe harvesting to balance sex ratios on our landscape is just not very applicable either. You’re just reducing the amount of bucks being produced. There is a number out there that exists of the amount of bucks that Alabama hunters want to kill each year or rather, the amount that it takes to satisfy “the demand”. The three buck limit has modified behavior and create that line in the sand. We arent producing enough bucks to meet that demand and then have proper excess for a healthy age structure. We need to produce more bucks that exceed the “demand” threshold…..To do that you’re going to have to bring the overall population up some……..which means what?? …….STOP SHOOTING DOES. Its a supply problem.

I disagree!! I’ve stated before that when we got our property it was overrun with does and little bucks running everywhere. Mature does averaged around 80lbs and foot plots didn’t stand a chance. The group that had the place before us never shot any does. You couldn’t hunt anywhere without does walking around blowing. We hit the does hard for 3yrs. After year 3 we let just the kids shoot does and they were then weighing in the 90-100lb range. We did that for a few years and we noticed the number of does starting to rise so now we take a few every year and now most of the does we kill are in the 100-120lb range. We also shot some of the less desirable bucks keeping the bucks the we knew had good potential. Now we are right where we want to be. We have a good number of healthy deer and quite a few of really nice bucks. Both young and old. We accomplished all that on our own and I’m just a dumb coonass. It just takes common sense and discipline.

Yup

This is what we are doing. We started weighing deer this year. Only 1 doe killed so far. Bucks have been seen chasing doe's. We have scrapes all over the property. We have plenty of bucks on camera. I have a couple doe's that look to be in the 120 pound range. We stopped doe killing off green fields to try to encourage them to come out and let the bucks follow. I hope in a couple seasons to have a doe population high enough where its not a big deal to kill 7 to 10 a year. I think if we killed that many right now, the whole herd would suffer.

I am running 6 cell camera's. 5 are on greenfields, and I am monitoring more than anything else. I want to see how utilized the fields are. We are going to change the buck rules next year, and try to educate the guys on what not to shoot. We still have some crap rack bucks that need to go, but they seem to have disappeared lately. Usually during the rut I end up seeing deer on camera I haven't seen all year.

I’m curious because I don’t know the answer. Do y’all think more bucks are killed now with the 3 buck limit then were killed when I was a buck a day? Also how many of y’all killed more then 3 bucks a season back in the day? I can only think of a couple years when I killed 3 bucks. Most years I’m good for 2. I killed one her at the house so if I can kill one I’ll be a happy hunter.

I don't know across the board, but I do know people that before the limit wouldn't shoot but 1 or 2 a season. Since the limit, it had become a challenge for them to "tag out" even if it's small dear. I've only ever killed 5 total, so I'm no threat.

Cell cameras have seriously changed the game. I don't personally have any (mainly because I'm too cheap), but I have family that does and it's amazing how they can pinpoint a buck to a particular area when you have enough cameras. Then everybody is competing to hunt that area until he is shot. I believe it is making it harder for the better bucks to survive.

I'm guilty of killing way more than three bucks a year and did it for a number of years. Since probably 2004 or 2005, I have only killed more than 2 a handful of times. In our club of 12 or so hunters, it is unusual for any of us to kill more than 2 bucks a year.

Less from the perspective of total number of bucks killed but its likely become a higher percentage compared to the overall population as overall density or supply has decreased.

If you are bitching about what people kill and how people hunt I suggest you just stop hunting

Because there are less deer there are more bucks being killed now? Am I understanding you correctly?

No...........So lets say we’re killing 100 bucks and there’s 1000 present……we are killing 10% of the buck population……Now lets say we’re killing 80 bucks but there are only 500 present…..we are killing 16% of the buck population…….In this scenario we are killing less bucks but it’s a higher percentage of the total. These are just abstract numbers to represent the concept.

Cams and bait have made it VERY easy to kill bucks of all ages and sizes.

I’m not wanting percentages. I want numbers. Is the number of bucks killed with the 3 buck limit more the the number of bucks killed when it was a buck a day? All other deer numbers excluded.

Folks in Alabama want to consistently kill mature bucks or hunt for 4 months? Can't do both with current rules.

I'd say on some properly managed, low pressure large properties it's possible , but for the vast majority of properties statewide , those two are like oil and water , they don't mix.

Before baiting no difference

from what I've notice . No doubt in my mind permitted illegal baiting has helped .

If anything, cell cameras keep me from killing middle aged bucks. It lets me know which mature bucks I need to be waiting for and less likely to get an itchy trigger on a younger buck that I otherwise wouldn’t have much time to evaluate.

Thing about cameras they give a lot the drive to go more because they know from pictures that the bucks there. Simple percentage is more you go it's up the chance to kill one

Like turkey hunting if you never hear one you don't have the drive to go back. .

From 1984-2006 we killed roughly 200,000 bucks annually according to the estimates……Today we are killing roughly 100,000…….The three buck limit was enacted in 2007. Those numbers are pretty insignificant though without comparing it to the total population that existed back then and the one that currently exists now. While the number of buck being killed has been reduced by 50%........The total number of deer present on the landscape has likely been reduced by a higher percentage….which means were shooting are larger percentage of the buck population than we used to. You can make your own guess as to how much the population has been reduced but at a peak we were killing 450- 500K deer annually compared to roughly 180K now

There are a lot of great opinions here Mbrock is spot on. In a nut shell.....hunters that feel they are entitled that spend a lot of money on cameras and corn feel they can and, in their mind, need to kill sub average to average deer to offset their expenditures. Our lease in NW Fl. has always held great deer for Fl. as long as the buck rules were followed, five years ago it was not uncommon to have 3-4 bucks in the 130-135" range killed out of the 10 -12 killed. Now it is not uncommon to have 90-100" deer bragged about. The big deer are still here but the entitled younger group will not put the work into hunting them, they live and die by the cameras and corn. As a club we need to and will cull the herd of hunters that simply don't get it. Back to the cameras and corn, the problem with both is they increase the traffic/pressure on the deer due to the fact some of our guys have to check them every other day. It is not easy to manage a club with all of these nuances added to the mix.

My guess is the people making guesses end up with numbers that were a guess so one guess is about as good as the next guess that's my guess

Craftsmen know their tools and use them correctly.

Any chance you can put that in graph format?

I think you are dead on - some of us had this discussion late last year and again this year. The property we hunt is a prime example - we see plenty of 2-4 year old deer but the older deer we have always seen have almost vanished. We are seeing larger older does but not bucks - our scientific theory was that those 2-4 year olds still think they can get away with sneaking some feed in daylight hours and end up dying. I have 1 deer on camera that may be older than 4 - he hasn't been to a pile of feed since youth season ended. All the young bucks are still showing up everyday some in daylight.

Cut buck limit from 3 to 2. Put a limit on doe kills as well. It’s worked in GA. There are a lot of 150” + deer being killed in GA every year!!

This is the numbers I was looking for. Way more bucks were killed back then because you had way more does having bucks. That part I understand. Of all those bucks being killed, I wonder how many were older then 2yr olds. Like I said, I know a lot of people that has been hunting in Alabama a long time and I’ve seen the piles of little fork horns and spikes. When we had our place in Georgiana, we were surrounded by big dog clubs. We would visit quite often and they’d tell us about the 300+ bucks they’d kill every year until they put the 3 buck rule in. They’d tell us if it had a visible antler of any kind it got shot. I just know on our place we have more better bucks now then we did 10yrs ago when we got the place and overall healthier deer. But we also have lots of trigger control.

I would be for it

Here in Louisiana most areas have a 6 deer limit. 3 buck/ 3 does or 2bucks/ 4 does. The area I’m in it’s 2bucks/2does. At our camp we have a self imposed limit of 2 does and state limit on bucks. However not every member will kill a buck. They will get them a doe are 2 for meat and they’re done. Some will hunt all season and never fire a shot because they’ve killed deer other places and are just waiting to kill a big one. As far as us ever having 150+” deer on our place, I believe would be very rare, maybe non existent because of the habitat and soil quality. That’s just my opinion and I’ve been wrong before. I could go with 2 bucks and a limit on does but not doe days. I like to be able to kill a doe anytime in the early season.

Same here

Carbonclimber’s wish list:

Outlaw corn
Outlaw cell cameras
Extirpate coyotes from the southeast
Extirpate wild hogs from this continent
Make the management of wild quail and turkey more important than paving roads
All hunting on public land for monetary gain(youtube) be banned
Turkeys gobble a minimum of 25 times
All tournament fishing be capped at a $1k pot
Game wardens must have at least one peg leg(2 preferred)..an they have to buy their own gas
Only people who have read the tenth legion and watched all the tk and mike movies can make rules about deer an turkey hunting
Crappie fishing can only be done from the bank, with a jig
Limblaunching will be illegal..but only if you get caught

Preach

I think the cell cameras just make people say, "Golly Gee, you know I'm not seeing as many mature deer as I usually do." Uh, well, tell me, just how many mature deer were you used to seeing BEFORE cameras? It's not like any body on here was just seeing a whole bunch of mature deer every hunt they went on and now all the sudden you just aren't seeing them. And again, if so, it ain't a problem with the cameras or the bait or the technology...it's a problem with whoever is pulling the trigger on the young bucks. But thankfully - as of now in AL - we are free to shoot what we like to shoot within the legal bag limits and what makes the individual happy. I myself do not want to see the state step in with more regulations...I'd rather not have to pay for bypassing certain regulations like baiting, but I'd also rather not pay a non-resident license fee either.

Everybody keeps talking about season length. Plenty of states including big buck states have just as long or longer. We do have one of the longer gun seasons, but the weapon you're carrying only matters if you use it. In my area, the issue is more people and less land to hunt. Everyone is directly or indirectly affected by that.

I could be wrong, but I think some folks are misunderstanding what Matt is saying. Not everyone uses cell cameras incorrectly, I think several of us use them to help us age deer and figure out which deer are shooters/mature and how to pin point them.

However, a feeder and a cell camera make it much easier for average Joe’s to kill 2-3 year old deer. Several clubs that are 8 point or better, average folks in a hunting don’t care how old that deer is. If a 3 year old 8 point shows up on cell camera he is easier to kill now. That leads to what Matt is saying, less 5 year old deer for next year etc.

Sounds like the most practical solution to me. Too much money in corn and cameras for either of them to be banned.

I have hunted a couple of properties where a biologist told them to engage in relentless doe slaughter, and both properties were ruined from it. After a few years, hunters were seeing 1-2 deer in daylight per season. I'm sure there are properties that need a doe thinning, but that is not the majority of Alabama. If you have such a property, then get a DMAP permit. Or... give me a gate key lol.

Screw more regulations........

Technology has upped the game for everyone. I think sooner or later regulation is to follow to combat the offset. Kinda like playing Madden on easy mode and beating the shucks out of the computer every game. Something has got to give eventually.

I’m in that technology boat. I have been literally sitting at home waiting for a particular buck to start daylighting on the regular. He’s getting closer as we get into January and when he does I’ll start hunting. Without cell cams, I’d be putting unnecessary pressure on my lease before the time was right.

This

I think the only deer regs should be season and bag limits. You should be able to kill them at any time of day using whatever weapon and methods you want.

This does not apply to public land.

Thank you. I’m not bashing anyone for killing whatever they like to kill. I’m simply stating that making it easier to remove the middle age class and a longer time frame to do it in is going to impact huntings future. It has to. I’m not trying to define what should or shouldn’t be a trophy, who kills what, etc. It’s an observation. A valid one too. I have talked to many landowners and leaseholders who are losing the incentives to continue dumping resources into hunting due to there not being an age class of bucks they desire to take. They aren’t taking them. Everyone else is. How could this impact deer breeding behaviors and rut success? How will it impact habitat management? I’m sorry to inform y’all, and you may like it or not, but the wealthy typically put more resources into habitat and management. They can impact larger acreages. More habitat impacted, more benefits for everyone else. As they lose interest in management because the results they desire can’t be achieved due to overharvest of the middle age class what happens?

Hallb, I can take you to vast acreages where older age class bucks do not exist. It’s because of overharvest. Deer aren’t as smart as some of y’all think. They can not avoid humans with rifles for 3 months, especially in acreages broken down into smaller parcels. Somebody is going to kill them if that’s what they set their mind on doing and have the advantages we have today.

I think some of y’all have taken this somewhere I wasn’t intending on going. I still believe ppl can kill whatever they want within the law. I’m not in favor of more regulation. I just have serious concerns about what this will look like 5-10-20 years down the road.

I think that concern, depending on what it looks like for you, is pretty much already in place for a large percentage of the state. Mostly larger tracts in timber country with the average run of the mill hunting clubs. And it makes for a very poor hunting experience. But it’s also kinda just the norm at this point.

This is what we have seen with our bucks is that we let the bucks walk and our neighbors kill them and I guess that's ok because I'm not going to shoot anything but older bucks. This has all been since feeding became legal. Anyone can kill a buck from a feeder with a cell camera set on it and I mean anyone. This is why you see so many kids killing their first deer when they are only 6-7 years old sitting over a feeder. We have some nice bucks but we don't have the 4 1/2 + bucks we use to have. Feeders have changed the way people hunt and also changed the way buck move.

Indeed.

I vote shorter gun seasons and limits. Folks are buying up small acreage and killing every buck they see bcause it's "Their Land". In one case fellow had 5 acres in a prime spot and kill 250 bucks in 20 years. Legal. Yes. Wrong to me yes. If it had antlers it died. Did I bitch him out. No at the time it was legal. Ran into a fellow at a restaurant a couple years ago just before Christmas. He had killed 60 deer already and was pissed he didn't get two does that day.

Here is a idea for all you I don't like bitches. Stop hunting in Alabama. Find you a northern state that has laws like you want. Try to draw a tag or lease you some land in one of these states. Stop coming on an Alabama deer hunting website and constantly complaining about why you can't kill mature deer. Nothing here is gonna change it is what it is grow up and move on.

I don’t hav a cam on my big field - hate I turned cam on at my small field and plan to cut it off - I like my cams in the roads best - catch poachers and good deer - cameras often seem to spook some of my mature on fields wher I try to hunt - like to leave it as spook free as possible - l hunt wind anyway and only 1-2 spots available for right wind anyway - wouldn’t be surprised if kill another mature at big field - my blind is back off the field - often I can leave w out ever getting detected so it like I never hunted

Glad I not in a club and I hope I shoot 5 and older this year but if a really big 4 shows up bigger than anything I ever shot - he likely get shot - b nice problem to hav. It’s fun to watch deer on cam consecutive years and watch them age

Lot of my mature from last year missing in Clarke - but acorns made lot things diff for me this year

Some of yall calling for limit on does need to remember there are a lot of place's that do need the does killed. Ever body I talk to that hunt see plenty of deer. To many does is not good .

Guess you don’t like having civil discourse. Stay out of it if you can’t.

I think cnc needs to make us a graph..how bout it old bean..whoopus up a graph..i know you want too🥸

I’m not against having rules but right now that is playing right into the game plan of having less deer on the landscape and limiting each hunter more and more on how many he/she can take. That isnt going to make things great again. It’ll mean chittier and chittier hunting for many and higher and higher prices for the remaining good stuff. If you want better hunting then voluntarily stop shooting the buck producers. I’ll say it again, the prevalence of coyotes means there is only a finite amount of habitat suitable for producing baby bucks. Everyone who is knocking does down by the dozen to meet a quota is just killing overall production. You're killing the total number of bucks being dispersed onto the landscape.

I was actually just sitting here making a map of the number of deer reported from each county over the last 24 hrs just for my own curiosity......I suppose I could post that when I finish.

Or tdogs big field either...

🤣🤣🤣

But using that same mentality, killing less does means people shooting more bucks. I’ve seen it on here numerous times of people stating they “need 5 deer a year”. So if they stop shooting does, what are they going to shoot…more bucks. You will be losing bucks whether it is from shooting does or preventing people from shooting does.

Technology has changed hunting and fishing. Whether its cell cameras, cell phones, drones, live scope, etc. and whether better or worse, probably not going to change back to pre tech or pre feeding. Only thing you for sure can do, is what is right for you. Set your standards and keep them. Try to align yourself with like minded people. Maybe you can get a large enough piece of land ya’ll can control.

In reality I’m not expecting everyone to actually stop and that’s kinda part of the point…….There will always be some folks out there who will keep shooting does for the reason you stated…..and that’s fine……but you want as many folks as possible to start playing it more conservatively….. especially the big players. You want to change the narrative and the idea amongst the masses that our club NEEDS to shoot “X” amount. This is how change happens without making more rules

We have our own plan in place and we have plenty of deer. We get more buck pictures then does. We get lots of doe pictures but the bucks edge out the does. I’ve only posted a couple pictures of a couple bucks just to verify they were the age I thought they were. We mainly share pics among ourselves because people don’t need to know what we have. Most of the older bucks will survive this season again because they live in an area that is not fit for man nor beast and they are strictly nocturnal. Our only hope is a doe will drag them out in front of us. Also we are starting to have new bucks show up regularly now. I understand this is not the norm because we’re fortunate to have lots of property around us that is not or barely hunted so that’s helps us a bunch.

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Amen Blade - control your own trigger and get w some like minded dudes - do what best for you

That’s a blessing. It’s hard to find anything not hunted in some parts of AL.

All the folks I talk to say that they have more big bucks and more deer than they’ve had in years. These are the good years for alot of folks.

And we try our damnest not the mess it up. I’m also blessed to hunt with a group of great guys. Most of us grew up hunting together and we are all on the same page. We had one guy that was a little trigger happy on younger bucks until he finally killed a really nice one and realized that if he kept shooting the little ones he’d never kill a big one. We still make a mistake every now and then but we celebrate them just as we celebrate a big one. Heck we celebrate every deer killed on our place because everyone of them is a gift and will provide food for families.

Houston...we have a problem!

Sounds like BCLC in his 20’s!

Spot on. Many new hunters I feel now are not learning how to be an”good” hunter I’m sure. They pour corn out and watch cameras. Maybe I’m wrong and just old school. Killing a big buck would just mean more to me if I killed it the old school way by hunting sign and pounding the woods scouting. I wonder how much of that actually goes on now. I’m sure I will ruffle a few feathers oh well just the way I see it. It has too make deer more nocturnal I would think also unless you are blessed to have a property with no pressure which is few and far between now.

I enjoyed everybodys opinion but yall skipped over my problem of deer being shot all summer in the beans and left for the buzzards. Not on my land i own but several farms around and some that border our club.

Sounds to me like the hunters aren’t killing enough deer. If the hunters kill the deer then the farmers don’t have to use the depredation permits. I rather the hunters kill the deer and get the meat then the buzzards or coyotes.

In my state wide travels since October, I’ve seen my live deer and road kill than ever before. I’ve also seen more bucks at the three properties that I hunt in Montgomery and Macon counties.

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Thank you, Matt. You're a trusted professional, so you can get away with saying what the rest of us cannot. It's exactly what's happening with Livescope sonar in fishing nowadays....you know, some northern states have already implemented some laws related to it because they're seeing a detriment to the fish numbers.

One thing else I saw in this post that blessed my heart, is someone else agrees with me that we have too many hunters. I'm so sick of hearing this fake narrative that "we're losing hunters". My hunting experience everywhere I hunt is diminished to the point that I'm losing interest, and it's because it's pressured to death, the harvest numbers are out of control, etc. WE are the reason turkeys have declined. It's not predators....WE are the predator that is out of control. Good Lord, everywhere you go, public or private, there's a truck at every gate, every day, all year long.

There are fewer hunters overall, all game, but more deer hunters.

Yeah, we're in a bad area for that. That's one reason I took my foot off the gas on doe killing. Glad you mentioned it.

There are very few bucks that you can't kill with a cell camera and bait. Very very few.

Maybe if you have "Too Many Does".... you should blame your corn feeder instead of whoever is killing the bucks.

and more turkey and duck hunters. Trapping, Small game and bird hunting is what is way down numbers wise.

Definitely down. Majority of folks don't want people hunting small game on their properties anymore, hell we're our own worst enemy (as you can see from this thread) Ifn they ever cut our season in half and drop the Buck limit to one y'all (one's advocating for that) can have it!!!

And a feller who wanted to extend shooting hours with one of those Hubble scopes with a lighted reticle could get the rest.

Some of y'all are more full of chit than a Thanksgiving turkey. You know who you are

You got me!!! We only have a couple deer left on our place. We’re gonna try to take care of those before the season ends!!!

No doubt technology has made deer hunting easier. Corn also. Cant put it back in the box though. Tech just gets more advanced and corn generates too much revenue. I wouldn’t mind if they shortened the gun season and dropped the buck limit to 2 with 4 points on one side for one of them. Of course others will feel a million different ways about that. I understand people are in different stages of hunting and what’s a trophy to some is not to others etc.... Many different variables there. As far as shooting big bucks at corn piles I think it depends on the property and the pressure it receives. I’ve seen it go both ways.

It wasnt you I was referring to but if the shoe fits.........

I bet Michael Perry, who killed a record muzzleloader on public land last year does not have these thoughts. All pissed off about what some other land owner is doing... I am betting he enjoys deer season a lot more than most.

Mature deer on our property are rarely seen or photographed over corn. My theory is that they know its not a natural food source and they associate corn with human presence. In my experience, you will get a couple pictures of mature deer on trails until they notice the camera and change routes, or they may slip up when with a bachelor group and get caught in the back ground at a corn pile but they're not stupid. I could be giving an animal more credit than they're due but that's just my .02.

I did not read through all the responses but cameras have had the opposite effect for us. Because we know there are larger and/or older bucks around, we are shooting less of the middle age class bucks when they make an appearance. But we are all older hunters that have long passed the need to kill a buck stage.

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Cameras should help u age deer better - I both like and don’t like em sometimes

My best spot currently is a non camera spot and I killed all my deer at a different area last year - one of em very old - also no camera spot

OK ,,,you pick the ones that die kill them during season . That's what we told folks.

We had one place where the boss all but beg them too trem the deer they didn't we did . In a month we killed over 30 after season.

Hated it too. . Try and talk the farmer about it be nice and friendly . You might be surprised how he talks back

And damn it close his gates lol

Yeah it's the small game hunters numbers that are dropping for yearsssss

so now its easy to kill mature bucks by having cell cams? tell that to the guy who hunts public land exclusively or the guy that doesnt have access to prime time hunting land such as some of those keeping this thread going.. I know people who have hunted their entire life without killing a trophy buck.. No offense intended but what seems easy to some of you fortunate guys dang sure isnt that easy for others..

If you have big deer to kill you can kill big deer . My advice ,,,, change the way you hunt it ain't working

I’ve been told I was by many a people!! I enjoy poking fun with people!!

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Do you use feeders or just put corn on the ground? There's some young fellers over near us did and experiment . Their big bucks wouldn't come to a spin feeder or gravity feeder. They put a pile of corn less than 50 yards from the feeders and the older bucks would ram their head in and go to town.

Try putting two cams up one facing the "bait" the other facing 180 degrees away. Camera avoidance is real.

I honestly can't believe cell cams are legal.

And laser rangefinders and lighted reticles.

It’s not easy Hamma - I hav been in clubs where most didn’t no how to hunt - didn’t know about wind or pressure - some of those clubs were incredibly difficult - try to hunt where they don’t but some hunt every day and cover everywhere

I am blessed to hav upgrades now but spent many years in seira dessert. Was in some good clubs but in more of my fair share of bad. I still hav not killed a mounter last 4 years - muzzloader did not fire opening year at a mounter 4 years ago

Last year I had 1 deer I May hav mounted - this year I hav one I may mount - they both were rairly on my property and hav not seen the one from last year this year
Always been very hard for me - guys in here post way bettr deer pics on deer they got than I got - good for them - I hav areas or mineral sites I never step n and still don’t hav 130 step n - hard to see where I at and we don’t shoot much - didn’t shoot any here last year

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Lot of good posts in this thread, but this one might be the best one. When cameras tell us that a deer we want to harvest is there, our chances of going increases and our willingness to stay on stand longer is greater. A lot of hunters would quit or give up after a certain number of “dry sits” in the past… not so much today. Add to that actually seeing several deer every hunt because of the feeders… hunting has become enjoyable just about every time out.

Years ago when I hunted a public permitted area, I saw 8 deer the entire season. At the midway point I was about done when I saw (and missed) a giant 8 point. Needless to say, my desire to hunt was rekindled for the rest of the season.

Matt Brock..... I am disappointed that there are no graphs on this thread.

I think they should outlaw rifle scopes way too much technology. Muzzle loader with iron sights only. 3 weekends a year season, bow only the rest of the 2 month season. 1 buck, 30 does per license. Then everyone can shoot a big mature buck which is the only reason anyone hunts anyways.

Im for whatever makes more people take up golf an pickle ball

Yes sir. There are entirety too many people hunting and fishing.

That’s the dang truth!

Compound bows are high tech too, they should be gone. No fancy sitka gear either. Naked with a spear is the only real hunting.

Trigger pulling is our number 1 problem. Thanks for the post Matt, you nailed it. Cameras and baiting and pulling the trigger is not helping at all. A deer can live past 2.5-3 years old but it's up to us to stop killing them. I don't see things getting any better.

Too many young bucks being killed, too many 3 year old's being killed, too many old bucks dying of natural mortality. I can't wait till turkey season for ya'll to complain about something different. Seriously, some good thoughts mixed in with complete insanity.

The obvious answer here is Conservation Clubs. Those who endlessly obsess about Deer's age can live in peace and harmony, while eating Soy burgers around the natural gas campfire.

My interpretation of what Matt is saying is, With cameras and corn in the woods, a lot of 3 and 4 year old bucks are getting killed, a lot of pretty nice deer by the way, that previously no one would have even known they were around. Makes a lot of sense to me. I think to an extent the same thing is going on with older age class of Gobblers with the decoys. A lot of 3 plus year old turkeys would not be killed without them

They will avoid feeders like the plague. Gave up on that a couple years ago.

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2dogs is right - I been running test like that for years

In one spot I put cam and feeder on both sides field - turn one of cameras off and see which feeder empties first

I often put a pile away from feeder - it get hit first

Granted, an individual hunter will never be as “successful” on public land as the same hunter would if cut loose on a prime lease/club with less pressure, cameras, corn, food plots, etc. Regardless, there is a level of freedom and enjoyment that comes with not being beholden to all that damn work, pressure, and another man’s interpretation of what you ought to shoot (still have to follow the laws though of course) that is inexplicable. We have effed around and made deer hunting and “growing big deer” absolutely STUPID, idolic, and miserable in Alabama. Other than hunts that are heavy on the fellowship with people I consider dear friends and family, I have long since been done with this silly state. The feeding was the last straw for me.

I now live in Michigan which had legal baiting for decades and was recently outlawed a few years back due to disease transmission at baiting sites supposedly. I can tell you this, baiting makes killing deer a lot easier and I think the data was around 70% of all bucks killed were 1.5's. I am planning to retire back to Bama and was unhappy to hear of the legalization of baiting down there after seeing all the problems it caused up here. Look for your 1.5's and 2.5's to be slaughtered on an unheard of number and mature bucks will be even more rarely taken. Just my experience and opinion.

I lived and hunted Michigan for 5yrs. The baiting there before was unlimited but not as many hunters as today. I spent 10 years total flying helos in Alabama before baiting was legal and the amount of bait there was unreal.
It looked just like flying over the legal baiting areas of Ms lol. Easy to spot yellow stuff and feeders flying low and slo

Dry whole corn in the shucks = best buck bait

Technology has changed everything. From how’s and why’s to peoples minds things have changed and not always for the better.

Back before baiting was legal and our neighbors were still hunting, they’d tell us we were crazy for not feeding corn. They all fed heavily. That one guy that hunted to the west of us would shoot 3-4 afternoons a week. We had a couple guys in our group that used to hunt in Jackson on the river. They used to feed by the trailer loads. They wanted to feed at our place. We have a 100ac tract separate from the main block. They would feed over there as they were the only ones that would hunt it. I can say that feeding corn has helped us see way more deer but we don’t kill anymore deer now then before it was legal.

I can remember back in the 80s when guys would kill 20 racks a year - lot of them fork horns - I use to think what a waste - we survived

I like the way I run my place now - I hate the extra cost - but I think corn has helped see more deer -
Lot of people were always gone feed it - now most evrybody does

Another thing that I believe has contributed to a lot more 3 and 4 yr old deer being killed the last few yrs is the legalization of crossbows, especially during the early part of bow season when a lot of these bucks are patternable, If they get within 50 yds or so, shooting them with a crossbow is just as easy as pulling the trigger on a rifle....02

I have seen a lot of pictures that say other wise. Just takes a few years for them to get used to it. Just like anything else.

Yup. Mature bucks are afraid of feeders that get placed and turned on 2 weeks before deer season.

They will readily visit feeders that have been in place and running 365 days a year for several years.

Deer become leery of feeders when they associate it with being shot at or with human activity if they see humans as a threat......That's why they'll respond to it better just spread on the ground.

I had nice bucks that stayed in front of flash cams ever night . Even smell of them . Ever buck ain't the same though.

The ones with the red light seem to scare mine more.

It's the same thing you still have to go spread your scent around and a 50lb sack lasts less than a week on the ground at my place I can go fill that feeder up once and it will last a month. Don't put your cameras on your feeder if you want to get mature deer on cam especially during the rut he can check those doe without ever being seen. I've got mature bucks on cam and I've killed mature bucks that I've never had a Pic of.

It's not the years, it's generations. What you're seeing is buck fawns that grew up around feeders. The older bucks when the slinger was put out never get used to it.

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Many years ago when I was in Arky for years where they fed corn then FL- those guys said - good bucks Will not come to electrical feeders unless they grew up on it

I know I heard guys in here say they had good bucks on electric - but I would say they prob grew up on it or they a lot tamer than most deer

Just to create a thought.... Maybe cameras and corn are saving middle age bucks.

Cell cameras and baiting could easily work the other way in terms of age structure. Example..... I know the bucks on my place and now regularly pass on deer I would have shot because the camera on a feeder has told me there are bigger out there and why shoot the smaller buck? Wait on big boy and hope it works out before season ends. My cameras are saving the younger bucks from me and my adult sons on the property they hunt.

Youtube has done more to screw up age structure (if it is in fact screwed up) than cameras or corn. Everybody just wants to show up and kill horns like the movies, they have no idea what 5 year old, mossy horned monster was 30 feet behind the 3 year old buck they shot the second it walked out of the woods.

That made me laugh when they legalized that. Thankfully the State here said no to that mess here. It 100% makes a difference as you stated, and I know several "bow" hunters that use xbows that would have never been out during archery season that are successful. People with disabilities are understandable.

I’ve been running two spin feeders and a gravity for three years since we bought our little patch of ground. In that time I’ve had maybe 5-6 pictures of bucks over 2.5yr old passing by the spin feeders. Always at night and not stopping. More often on the gravity feeder, also mostly at night. Interestingly, the gravity feeder is practically IN the camp. It’s 60 feet from the skinning shed, 65 feet from the side porch of the house, 75 feet from the fire pit. Last week I pulled the card from the camera that watched the gravity feeder and had 8 new bucks I’ve not seen this season between 2.5-4.5 yr old. They were actually eaten by out of the feeder. None of them visited the spin feeders. It may be that those spinners only throw a few pounds each day so the does get it all. I do get pics nearby our woods spin feeder on a well used trail. Bucks there so they aren’t concerned by the camera. Because I only throw a little corn each day, I only fill my spin feeders two or three times in a season and always right before a rain so it isn’t scent keeping them away. The upside to the cameras for us is that we know what is traveling across our property. My GF, who is still new to deer hunting, has never killed a buck. She’s 42. There’s a cow horn spike that makes regular daytime visits to the property and I told her she is welcome to take him if she wants. But after seeing what’s on the cameras, at night, she’s willing to wait and try to catch one of the older(2.5+ year olds) during the rut chasing the does we don’t shoot. That would please her to no end to get a 6 point that maybe scores 50 on the Boone and Crocket scale off our little 34 acres. And we’ll eat the whole thing.
But reading a lot of the posts here and other threads, I know that some folks with a lifetime of hunting and kills under their belt would begrudge her that kill because she didn’t let it grow to the mythical unicorn it might have been if we were located in a completely different area of AL, or another state 600 miles away. Nevermind the fact that if that same deer is found by neighbors one mile away it’s going to get shot all the same.