Long-term Impacts of Predator Trapping

I know a lot of people are starting to promote trapping as a solution to the impacts that coyotes are having on deer populations across our state……however……Has anyone here monitored the effects of trapping after say 3-5+ years???

I’m just curious as to what happens long term. I don’t question that in the short term that trapping can provide a property with an increase in prey populations…. but I can see a lot of possible issues that could arise over the long haul where trapping might fail to produce the same results long term. Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not saying it will for sure play out one way or the other….I don’t know…..BUT…..There are many questions that can be posed that would suggest there is definitely the possibility for issues to arise that are counter productive to our goals.

When prey populations go up on your land due to removing predators…..will this cause immigration to greatly increase from predators on surrounding lands?

When prey populations increase on your property……will the remaining predators produce larger litters?

If your land is already producing as many fawns as the habitat can hide from predators……where will the additional fawns that are produced seek refuge if additional “prime” habitat is not also provided? Will they be sitting ducks for new predators to move in on if they are forced to bed/fawn in the poorer, secondary fawning areas?

Will the number of predators being removed annually decrease over time, remain stable, or increase?

These are just a few of the questions or issues I have regarding the possible impacts of long term trapping efforts on a piece of property. This doesn’t even include the cost involved and if that cost is justified. What is your opinion or experience with it….Do you guys feel like trapping can be a long term solution?

But are you really controlling predators or just temporarily shuffling things around and setting yourself up for a big crash down the road? What happens when someone traps for 3-4 years and then decides they don’t want to pay for it the next summer and quits the program? Will there be a major increase in predator populations followed by a crash in prey species?

This study was done on a property I hunt in Cherokee co done by Grant Woods and UGA.
Cherokee Co. Study

It is called nuisance animal control and not nuisance animal eradication for good reason. Predation is one of many limiting factors that a land manager has to consider. Aldo Leopold spoke of the oak-deer-indian dynamic in A Sand County Almanac. His chapter "Thinking Like Mountain" also speaks to the naive idea that extirpating wolves was the simple solution to increase deer numbers out West.

A good land manager develops a balanced approach that manages predation as one of many limiting factors affecting your deer herd. Coyote numbers, if left unchecked, will likely continue to explode just like deer numbers did in the 60s and 70s. I've managed this same property for going on 20 years. Trapping is important to the management program and it will be continued. To do nothing is, in fact, a management decision with its own set of consequences.

Their was a study done own just this. I cant remember where. Either Texas or North or South Carolina. Its true, you MUST remove 70-75 % of the coyotes for 5 years OR you could make things WORST if you stop as you said after 3-4 years. Its just like this = IF you shoot a rifle in comps long enough YOU WILL have to re-barrel it. IF you plant a Greenfeild this year, their is some mantainace next year correct? If you work your roads this year AND it rains alot dont you have to work them again next year? Their are Pros and Cons of everything you do in life right??? So a predator management plan, is an exceptable expense for most. Just like putting out protein feeders,IF you want more , you must sometimes have to pay for it. Most higher-end game managers and property owners will agree that a Predator Program is worth the extra money AND worth figuring in to their management plan

Here’s another scenario which I posed in the other thread on does. Again, I don’t know this will for sure happen but just making an educated guess off of observed doe behavior……

If say you have a couple neighbors around you who are shooting does at a pretty decent rate….then I believe that it’s very likely that many of the extra deer produced on your land due to predator trapping with simply move onto the neighbors property and fill in the holes left by the deer that they removed. I don’t believe that they will stay on your property and be pushed into very poor secondary bedding/fawning areas when much better locations are vacant. So are you paying a trapper in order to just be a deer factor for the neighbors? You can’t just make more prey but not provide them with more places to bed and raise young can you??

So just be cause YOU are against paying a trapper everyone should be?? Everyone has different needs and goals with Predator Management. IF YOU are a small land owner then hiring a trapper may not be practical to you. I agree that quailty fawn habitait is important. But if you can find someone to trap for you at the EXACT same time that fawns are dropping in your area, why not do it??? If you can afford it, why not help the deer? I personal think that the = Do nothing approach is why we have so many coyote today! But I see your point as well on quality fawn habitat. Predator Control is an individal choice. What works for the large land owner may not work for the small. Plus their is not = Silver Bullet of trapping. One size doesnt fit all. Ever manager must make his own descisions on Predator Control.

Here’s another question to pose……Will predator trapping on my property equate to me having more mature bucks living on my property? I think it would be easy for someone to say “Sure!…..More buck fawns being born equals more bucks on my property.” However, I don’t believe that is necessarily true. I think the number of bucks that take up residence on your property is far more defined by how things fall out during annual buck dispersal rather than being dictated by how many buck fawns are born on your property. You may have twice as many buck fawns born on your property next year due to trapping but what happens when its time for yearling bucks to disperse. The whole landscape resets itself from the standpoint of yearling buck distribution. Yearling bucks get on their feet and start looking for a new place to get in and fit in. What decides where these young bucks set up their new future home range?…..It will be where there are holes to be filled in the habitat where there are available resources and they're not being shown aggression from older doe groups. If your “hotel” of prime habitat is filled….then where will most of these extra yearling bucks go to? How many will stop and set up shop on your property?

It is a simple equation (in my mind at least):

Create good habitat + feed the piss out of them + don't hunt your good areas until it is time + don't shoot does on your best buck killing spots = having mature deer.


Having said that, I do try my best to control predators on some of my property. Like shooters said, it damn sure don't hurt.

IF ITS a large enough property then the answer will be YES! Buck Disperseal on small propertys is something that is out of your control. BUT look at what you can control. Habitat, the age of bucks you kill, and A Predator Program IF you chose to do so. My question to you is = What could trapping, at fawn dropping time hurt??? You say you deer disperse to your neighbors, BUT many studies show mature bucks returning to their home property from which they were dispersed from. Yearling Buck disperseal is going to happen on small propertys, but trapping will help your OVER ALL area. I understand if 1s neighbors are not on the same page management wise how that could effect 1s hunting. I get it! But my question again is = What could timed Predator Control really hurt??? Besides 1s pocket book if he doesnt trap?

True for any legitimate management -- predators, bass in a pond, weeds in a field, deer that need thinning, weeds in the yard, trimming limbs on your fruit trees, whatever.

Effective management is an annual deal, not a quick-hit "trap a few yotes and we'll have more deer!" or "catch a few bass but don't catch all my babies!" situation. Effective management requires a commitment to year-round monitoring and work, for anything.

Trapping is a very costly effort. I’ve posed numerous questions that I would want to know the answer to before deciding to invest that kind of money in a long term trapping program. I would want to know what effects it has past just the first year or two and where the extra deer produced were going. I think we’ve done a few studies that show fawn recruitment increasing after predator removal and we’re jumping on the bandwagon without knowing any further impacts that may occur. I think probably the most important one to note is that removing all or most of the predators from a property is not just effecting the deer. As a result of removing the predators then you are artificially inflating most all prey species beyond the limits of what the current habitat can hide/produce…..mice, rabbits, etc….The first year or two of trapping may be to remove the resident predator population but once your prey population is peaked out on the graph…..then future trapping efforts will be for the purpose of holding back the hoard of immigration from surrounding areas. Trying to hold back the hoard may very well be an even more costly effort than the initial trapping of resident predators. The moment predator trapping is ceased then I believe it’s inevitable for there to be a major boom in predator numbers on the property where trapping was conducted. I believe you will see the predator line on the graph climb steeply straight upwards in the next year or two following the cease in trapping followed by a major crash in the prey population. In other words, once you start….then you can’t stop or you may end up worse off than if you had never trapped to begin with.

How much does it cost to get someone to trap on your property?

I’m sure it will vary depending on how folks charge but I believe the last time we had the yote trapping discussion it was determined to be around $100 per yote.

Why not let equilibrium be established in the ecosystem on its own?

Why trap anything? Pretty inhumane IMO.

Because that equilibrium might mean 10 coyotes to 1 deer and deer hunting wouldn't be very fun.

Nah.
Predator/ prey relationships dont work that way. It will always be a pyramid. Predators at the top, prey at the bottom.

To suggest the pyramid as inverted would mean the extinction of both the prey and the predator - and nature wont allow that.

Ok my example was too extreme. You pick the ratio. Coyotes, according to most, are taking too large a share of the deer population.

I guess i see it as just taking their share.

I have always hunted properties with unchecked coyote populations. The thing is on these properties there are still vibrant small game populations, often see rabbits, coons, possums, etc. And i never have a problem filling the freezer with deer and turkeys. I get my share too.

Im not being argumentative - if you want to spend your time trappping and spending money on it. Cool. I just dont see the cost/benefit. Nor does it sound like fun to me.

Im sure it helps the fawns to a degree. But you may also being helping the turkey nest raiders like coons and possums who will also benefit from your efforts.

And as said, you may also create a boom & bust cycle with further reaching consquences.

I agree with you Walt4dun. I'm not going to spend my precious hours in the woods on trapping. I just don't live close enough and don't see the immediate benefit.
I'd rather enhance habitat and plant forage for the wildlife. That's more fun to me anyways.

Now that i agree on too!

Habitat, habitat, habitat.

The rest will work itself out.

I think y'all worry too much.

I don't trap coyotes on any properties I hunt because I don't think it would be worth the effort or expense. You can adjust doe harvest according to what predators are doing. I look at it this way, and have generated some disturbing looks and reactions, but if coyotes are eating as many as some studies claim that means I have to work less to kill the does I need to kill each year. Less work is better IMO. They aren't going to extirpate deer. Predators have been around for a long time.

And as has been stated, create good fawning cover and forget about it.

You are right once you start, you must not quit. But to me I wouldnt stop having greenfeilds? Would I stop putting out corn/pellets in the spring? Will you stop trying to improve your land? Will you stop trying to improve fawn habitat?? I understand the cost part. Trapping is not for everyone. So cant afford it, so just dont want to pay. But do you skimp on seed? Do you skimp on fertilizer? Do you let your rodes go un-worked? Its all personal choice. But lots of high end managers find a Predator Program to be effective to THEM!

How many folks do you think you have trapped for over the years?

I have been trapping since 16 years old. Im 42 years old now. Started of with fox,coon, and beaver. The went to coyote and beaver . Last 10 years strictly coyote. Single season = 1 year 191 coyotes. Most every year = 100 plus coyotes. CNC , I honestly dont know. My quess would be 100s??? Everything from 80 acre farms to 8-12k acre huntimg clubs and large land owners. I have been up since 6 am dipping traps, cutting of re-bar, and making trap tags. The fun never stops!!!

How many of those are you currently still trapping on this year?? On how many have you trapped yotes for more than 5 years continuously? How many years does the average client trap before stopping?

Are you writing a thesis?

Nope. We’ve already established that starting and stopping an intense trapping operation can potentially have major negative consequences. If it’s determined from past experience that say 95% of the folks who start trapping eventually stop…..then wouldn’t that make it a bad long term strategy to recommend to folks?

I don't understand how you've established that there will be major negative consequences from an on again off again trapping approach. Has anyone posting here witnessed this firsthand or is this just an assumption? Do you know of any studies that back this up? Has anyone here removed a large percentage of their coyotes for a couple of years, watched game numbers increase, stopped the coyote removal, and soon after, had a huge increase in coyote numbers and a drastic decrease in game numbers, or, was it a more gradual rebalancing? Just curious.

You folks are missing the whole point.

The people that have a trapping program see it as the protection of an investment. The vast majority of them are spending much more on their property than any of us (not all). They do not want the coyotes making the decision on what animals are removed from the herd. They want the ability to do that themselves.

Most people with these "trapping programs" aren't $2,000 a year clubs, they are privately owned and extremely well maintained and typically have some type of manager. If this is taking place on clubs, it's on very few and they came to a consensus together that they felt like they had a true predation problem and the only viable option they had was trapping.

Been outside working on traps.CNC , to answer your question. AFEW. AFEW. and its up to the client. I have all different types of clients. All have different goals. All have different price ranges. The client stops when he fells , he has reached his goals. In some case I have done personal instructions and taught the client to trap. Some times the leases change hands. Lots of reasons that clients stop, I dont assume to know them all. As I said people have different goals and price ranges

he made it up......

Yes, there is research to suggest what I’m saying but I don’t recall any specifics right off hand. I’m basing what I’m saying just off of what I recall reading and learning over the years about predator/prey relationships and population dynamics. Start at the bottom of page 7 and read a little bit of this paper. I’ll dig a little deeper and see if I find some of the specifics.

http://www.seafwa.org/resource/dynamic/private/PDF/Leopold-239-254.pdf

“However, research has also indicated that predator control is costly, labor-intensive, requires long-term commitments, and/or is ineffective in the long term.”

I’m sure Shooter can help us out with this scenario but here’s how I would see it playing out when a trapping program is abruptly halted after few years.

With ample supplies of small prey populations and virtually zero competition from other dogs…..I think you will have young subordinate dogs coming in from every direction to fill the void. With no dominance established and food behind every corner, I think it is very likely that the influx of subordinate dogs will end up being very high compared to the norm. Since prey populations will be abundant and many occupying the less prime areas of the property….the influx of subordinate dogs will also eat well at first. This in turn will mean that they throw off vibrant healthy litters in the first year or so of reintroduction. This will cause a coyote boom and then an intense competition will insue for the available resources. This will knock a major dent in prey populations until eventually dominance amongst some animals or groups is established and things can moderate back out.

What do you think will happen Shooter?

Thats a lot of = What ifs!! BUT if the trapper is up to the task he CAN set traps in a manner to take out the ALPHA Male and ALPha female. IF you take out the ALphas then the pack is thrown in too chaos AND A good trapper will catch the BETAs and juviniles and pups in short order. The coyote is the ONLY mammal in north american that can = control the size of litter it gives birth too. Example = an area of good prey for the coyote = the female will give birth to higher numbers of pups. BUT ONLY the Alpha and very rarely the Beta females of the pack get breed . Some people are under the impression that EVERY coyote that is female in a pack gets breed. Thats simply not true. PLUS a good trapper can target females in Febuary during the breeding season and catch females, buy design and help with that problem. Plus CNC the studys you post are from 2002. Im not smart enough to post studys I have read BUT lots better men have studied and report BETTER stuff than the articles you posted. Right now = Dr. Will Gulsby of UGA is doing a TRi- State Research Project. That will cover LOTS of what were talking about. Check out = The Deer Laboratory online and yall can read about the up coming resarch i 3 states on coyote travel.

That’s all good info shooter but it doesn’t answer the question that’s been asked. You’ve said yourself that once you start trapping you can’t stop…..What do you feel like would happen on a property that has been intensely trapped once the trapping is halted?

Here is a snip it from the link shooter posted on the new research being done. Good link.

http://www.ugadeerresearch.org/tri-state-coyote-research-project/

“Like other species in the genus Canis, coyotes take and hold territories to ensure optimal fitness through group living. This results in two distinct coyote space use patterns that have profound effects on coyote persistence on landscapes. Coyotes holding territories and exhibiting strict fidelity to areas are referred to as residents, and typically consist of breeding adults and their offspring. On the other hand, coyotes without territories who exhibit nomadic and extensive movements are referred to as transients. Transients are comprised of young dispersing individuals and older individuals displaced from territories that are seeking mates with which to establish territories. More importantly, transients typically fill in areas that become vacant when resident coyotes die.”


I think the best thing most of us can probably do is to leave the damn things alone and let a group or groups on your property get some age on them and establish a strict dominance over the area. I think this will keep the coyote density moderated on your property. Start taking out these dominant resident dogs and I think you will bring in twice as many of what the research article referred to as transient dogs. Not to mention if you are paying someone $100 per yote….once those resident dogs are gone then you are paying to catch every transient dog that can be caught for who knows how far out. The research article linked found dogs roaming over 200 miles. The point is that long term trapping becomes a much different game than removing the initial resident dogs.

CNC, sorry I didnt answer your question. But you have some long posts with questions inside them! Its about timing. Take as many female in Febuary as you can = this helps kertail coyote pups on your acres in the spring-summer. THEN take as many coyotes in the late summer = right before fawns drop. That is a plan that many land managers agree on, AND IT works! CNC, you are correct it is a constant battle with coyotes. BUT as NightHunter and other biologist will tell you = IF you want to make the choices on your acres INSTEAD of the coyotes you may want to trap. By the way CNC, I also trap buy the day fee. When we trap buy the day for a fee, we ALSO set coon traps free of charge . SO 100-150 dollars a coyote may sound high to you but IF your 250 a day and the trapper catchs 3 coyotes and 15 coons then your cost for Predator removal drops greatly, doesnt it? CNC, I see it like this = we will ALWAYS have coyotes and hogs. So we can choose to stick our heads in the sand OR we can fight back and trap them. Its all about choice. IF you have a top end peice of land and want coyotes and coons removed, guys like me are here for hire. If you dont = well thats your personal choice. Thats the good think about owning or leasing property. You get to make your own decisions.

Missed that question. The coyotes will return. BUT the same could be said with any animals you removed. Coons, hogs, and opossums will also return after you trap them all out. Its only a matter of time. The amount of time would depend on the property. Sorry CNC, but their is no = 1 size fits all answer to this question. Too many varibles.

Ditchcoff needs to chime in. It's taught at Auburn, and I'm thinking it was one of his classes, that the more coyotes you catch, the more you have to catch. Basicly, the is "X" amount of food for the coyotes. When the coyotes numbers are reduced, there is more food for the ones left resulting in healthier coyotes. Healthy coyotes have more surviving in a litter. Now, starting and stopping several times, not sure how that would equate.

The stopping and starting = is more about hitting them when you can do the most damage. Febuary is coyote bredding season, trapping them then reduces the amount of pups on your property. Then if you know from a biologist that fawns hit the ground say end of july, you can be trapping then and save some fawns! BUT you are correct on the rest. Its a constatant battle with coyotes. 1 must ask him self if HE wants to make the Management desicision for HIS property OR let the coyotes do it for him.

I agree.

Just a couple more random thoughts on the subject…..

The drumbeat is growing stronger and stronger pushing others to shoot every yote you see while hunting. Come hunting season we’re seeing just about as many yote pics pop up as deer pics. Heck, some people on here will even kick you off their land if you let a yote walk……but

The professional trapper just told you that taking out the dominant dogs in the pack would send things into chaos. What if instead of it being the trapper taking out that dominant dog….What if it is you out there deer hunting and shooting that big arse yote you see crossing the food plot? What happens when you randomly take out the dominant dog or dogs and send things into chaos? Will there be a new fight for dominance that will have to take place? Will this cause even more yotes to now come into your property to fight for that new dominance void?

……and even another thought on the subject.


You know that young yote we all see from time to time that looks like its starving to death and in really bad shape. What if that is a transient dog that can’t find a place to fit in? It would make sense that they would keep moving as long as they continued to be confronted by older, dominant resident dogs. I suspect they keep moving until they find a void somewhere. The extensive traveling would have an effect on them similar to a buck during the rut. They wouldn’t feed as well and they would be burning lots of calories by having to travel so much. I would suspect that the mortality rate of these dogs would be really high in places where the yote population already had many established packs across the landscape. The further the transient dogs had to travel to find a place to fit in the more likely they would be to die from some form of mortality…..hit by car, starve to death, fighting, random injury, etc…I have to throw this in as well. Some folks who are against trapping would celebrate if they could get trapping ceased. However, I think where trapping is not occurring and things are playing out naturally…..then you are probably having plenty of dogs die a much slower, harsher death from things like previously mentioned. I’ll see if I can cap one of those yotes this year that looks to be starving to death and we’ll see how humane that looks to you.

. Every situation is different, some areas just need to be trapped for 2 or 3 fawning seasons to allow the deer density to reach the point that it can handle the coyote predation and still maintain a population level desirable to the person managing the property. Some properties may need to be trapped on a regular basis to ensure adequate fawn survival. Some properties, like those in counties of high deer density, may not need to be trapped at all. Every property is different - deer density, amount of cover, management objectives, etc., lumping them all together and saying that they all need the same thing is overly simplistic. Some people want them removed simply for the sake of better hunting. They may have plenty of deer and turkeys, but don't like coyotes howling and spooking their deer the last few minutes of shooting light or might not want a coyote slipping in on their setup when turkey hunting. Some people enjoy a deer herd close to carrying capacity and taking those excess deer every year, others are fine with the coyotes managing the herd and a lower density. Trapping is a management tool just like food plots, controlled burning, harvest quotas, etc. The argument that it should never be used and man should not intervene in the natural cycle could be used to discourage the use of food plots, habitat manipulation and hunting itself. I am all for the natural cycle of nature working if it fits our objectives and when it doesn't I am all for using responsible management tools such as trapping.

simple...a DEAD yote dosen't eat fawns. Period.

...but the two that take his place eat two fawns. Question Mark

Exactly…..and not to mention what I was just talking about with the roaming transient looking for a home. What if every resident yote you shoot while hunting is just one less transient yote that doesn’t die from some other form of mortality since you opened up a hole for him? Are you really changing anything or are you just shuffling around the mortality?

.....get yer head out of yer arse Troy......

NO. If you take them out before fawning season, their will be a void true, but how would transisite coyotes know that the Alpha male and female was gone?? Some of you are acting like = WHEN you take the Alpha male or female away, another coyote from miles away = takes off running from miles away to jump in that coyotes place. It doesnt happen that fast! It WILL take time. Studies say coyotes run a looop , so to speak. 3 days to 3 weeeks. SO IF you removed the ALPHAs it could take 3 week for another coyote FROM another territory to even relize the ALPHAs have been removed

So on average - you have staved off the inevitable for 10 days. And now you have multiple animals jockeying for position in the old dogs home range.

How impactful

You folks just think you got it figured out don't you

You might as well give up Chris, you can't have this discussion here.

and you get the "10 day" thing from where? WAG .....

I got from right here.

I don't think we collectively have it figured out by a dang sight.
You certainly can have this discussion. I'm here to learn, think critically, and just interpreting the information as posted.

This is done to increase recruitment for a given year. You do that in successive years and you increase your overall herd size. Most research indicates that coyotes don't take but a very small percentage of healthy adult deer. No big deal...

If you stop trapping, a resident group will take hold and you will likely have the same situation you had when you started only with a larger deer herd.

On a property I did this way, I have not seen what I would call an increase in coyote numbers.

it's illegal to quote " shooters" as fact......

stop with the common sense, actual been there statements.....yer going to ruin a good thread.

Trapping coyotes before fawn drop dates I assume is the preferable time to trap. I imagine young coyotes are the most visible coyotes and are more trappable. I rather hear of some form of coyote removal as opposed to changing the hunter's expectations for this years deer hunting success.

HA! HA! ITS a true stastement. Studys have show that a coyote or packs of coyotes basicly make a circl or loop 3 days to 3 weeks. Variable are land topograph, prey density and pack size of coures.

Thats from a study done by a Universty and Mark June I think? Others have studied it as well. AS stated above 3 days to 3 weeks depending. 10 days? You are sort of twisting what a said around. Thats just when THE pack may return to same spot. In the packs hunting and territory many thinks may influence WHEN another coyote comes in and take the place of the ALPHAs you have removed. To say you only have 10 days is NOT correct! AS I said before, how would others know the coyote you took was gone???

You took the high side of the range and said 3 weeks.
I simply took the middle of your given range. About 10 days, on average.

I reckon he stops watering the bushes on the edge of his range.
Bert comes by, doesn't smell Ernie anymore, comes to the conclusion he moved out or kicked the bucket.

More money has been spent on coyote research than any other aniaml in North America. This is a fact, check it out on line if you doubt me. My point is we will never truly no what a coyote is thinking. UNLESS we find a talking coyote! Where coyotes territorys meet is where I LOVE TO TRAP!!!! How do you find these places??? Look for places with coyote scat. IF I find a place = like a 4 way rode intersect, that has white scat, brown scat , and new scat that is where I want to really seat up!!! A coyote does not just CRAP anywhere, for no reason. Most times is a = call card of sorts. Its like saying = here i am, this is who i am - rank wise, and this is my territory! Also look for a place or intersection with lots of scracth marks. It will look like a bunch of deer scraps but with coyote claw marks. That is a good territorial indicator. I hope this give you some insight on HOW a coyote reconizes another 1s territory!

Just in the past day alone I have seen guys who are considered our “resident biologists” mock folks for their ignorance of deer genetics and now today ridicule folks for attempting to learn and think for themselves…….And they wonder why they have such a hard time reaching the general hunter on here.

I applaud Shooters for his constructive participation in the discussion. Thanks.

Even if you use the 10 day number, which is low, that 10 days could make a difference during fawn drop. As others have said, adult deer are not really at great risk from coyote predation here.

Why the mocking? Here is why....

Deer genetics has been beaten to absolute death. It has been discussed, re-discussed, dropped on the ground, picked back up, dusted off, discussed again, and again, and again. This is why so many biologists get their panties in a wad over this issue, and several others (black panthers, SOOS bucks, etc), Because we are the experts. We are the professionals. We know what we speak of (most of the time), and if I don't, or you ask me something I'm not very clear on I will pass it to someone who does know. I wish for a few days some bio critics could stand in our shoes and get bombarded with the same old ignorant mess time and time again, although we publish great material that address these issues, have on-line resources, etc, and the fact of the matter is nobody cares or takes the time to read them. They'd rather get their information from the taxidermist, or the deer breeder down the road, cause you know he knows everything about deer since he raises them in a pen, and completely controls every aspect of their lives, or the great and wonderful deer killing celebrities, most of which know squat about deer, other than they get to hunt so many great properties from September through March they will by the law of probability kill several TV worthy deer each season.

Case in point......two weekends ago was the TN Valley Outdoor Show, and Uncle Si was there. I like Uncle Si. He's funny, and just a lucky redneck that hit it big. He talked a few minutes. Guess what? You couldn't put another person in the area he had to speak. Standing room only. People going nuts. Flash forward a few hours. Our Director gets up to speak about regulations, deer genetics, culling, funding for our agency, baiting, and things that really impact the sportsmen of AL. He had a nice powerpoint put together, and had time allowed for the public to ask questions, address their concerns, etc. Well, low and behold, there was a grand total of 18 people that sat through his presentation, and that INCLUDES myself, and three other Conservation Officers. That is beyond pathetic. It's actually a real good indication of where our society is. Bottom line, the hunting public couldn't care any less about our knowledge, what we offer, assistance, or even basic knowledge on the very things they enjoy. They just want to argue about what they think they know. But by golly come some major change and their attention magically directs toward us again, and they become very vocal. Pack the house for Uncle Si, who has absolutely nothing to do with AL's natural resources, and you could hear crickets chirp in the audience when the man of the agency speaks and interacts directly with the people.

Now about coyotes. I haven't read all this mess. Glad some of you want to trap coyotes. It's not for everyone. It's a piece of the puzzle that some people think will offer a quick fix to a much larger problem. But hey, that's where we are right now. Fix my problems immediately. I don't want to have to work too hard or for too long at anything. Most importantly, fix your habitat. Second, start trapping stuff. It can't hurt.

But if you fix your habitat be prepared for an increase in highly preferred prey items like rats, voles, rabbits, ground nesting birds that will probably attract MORE coyotes to your property because they have more prey, perhaps easing their desire to kill your fawns. Better habitat. More coyotes!!

Let's use a hypothetical situation and basic math to look at what might realistically happen in a trapping situation on a small property. We are trapping a 640 acre ( 1 sq. mile ) property that is loaded with a mix of year round food plots, natural food sources and great bedding cover. It is well managed for mature deer but is suffering from extremely low deer numbers due to over harvest of does in previous years in conjunction with an influx of coyotes. Doe harvests have been completely stopped, habitat improvements ( thinning, controlled burning, spraying, etc. ) have been made to increase fawning cover, but, deer numbers are well below what would be considered optimum for mature buck management. Even with adjustments made to harvest and habitat the land owner still can't get his numbers where he wants them. His fawn recruitment rate is around 50%.There is a main power transmission line running through the center of the property. This line happens to be where the territories of four packs of coyotes overlap. Each pack pack has a territory of about 9 sq miles (5760 acres) and is made up of 9 coyotes (1 per sq mile). The total area used by the 4 packs is 23040 acres or 36 sq miles. The coyotes have balanced out and are at carrying capacity for the available resources. The landowner decides to take $2500 a year he is using for supplemental feeding and spend that on trapping for 3 consecutive years. He feels that with his habitat improvements to native food sources, food plot program and low deer numbers that he has more than enough quality food available without supplemental feeding. The trapper catches 18 coyotes before fawning the first year. The trapper has no idea if he has caught the alpha male and female from each pack, how many from each pack or even how many packs are using the area, but it doesn't matter because he has reduced the coyote population by 50% on thousands of acres surrounding the 640 acres. This 50% reduction in coyotes leads to a 50% increase in fawn recruitment the first year. The packs losing alphas quickly reform with the dominant betas in the pack and breed aggressively the following year during their mating season to offset their loses. The second year, just before fawning, the four packs consist of 40 animals total, with the majority of them being pups. This time, the trapper catches 22 coyotes, with 15 of them being pups or 1 yr olds from the previous year. Again, this is done before fawning and fawn recruitment goes up another 10% due to the fact that many of the older, more experienced hunters from the packs have been removed or replaced with younger, inexperienced animals less capable of killing fawns. A situation similar to the second year also occurs the third year. As a result of limited coyote removal for 3 years, the landowners deer herd has grown exponentially to his optimum carrying capacity, red and grey fox numbers have improved, he has less hunts that are interrupted by coyotes and he can once again take a few does for the freezer without feeling like he has hurt his herd, and, more importantly, this same scenario has occurred on the thousands of acres surrounding him. The landowner decides to stop trapping after the third year. In the years to follow, coyotes numbers increase to carrying capacity, but deer numbers remain relatively close to where he wants them by adjusting his doe harvest. Basically, he has gotten over the hump and hopefully won't have to trap again if he and his neighbors monitor their doe harvest and provide good fawning cover. Just another way of looking at it.

Slipn, makes sense to me.

Great attitude Matt!! Its just that type attitude that we need trying to educate the general public. No patience and ample arrogance.

I have no need to retype what Matt said so eloquently. Oh, and by the way, nobody was ridiculing you or anyone else. If you can't handle a little poke this obviously isn't the place for you. I spend hours every week in conversations on the phone and on-site with folks from this site helping them with wildlife/habitat concerns on their property. I'll be happy to do the same with you.

It just gets very old seeing folks infer they know more than someone who has actually done the very thing said person is asking questions about (I am not pointing a finger at you).

This thread started with a question and by all accounts only 3-4 people in it actually have trapping/wildlife management experience yet we have reached a point that most folks posting are arguing with those that have the on-the-ground experience Just my thoughts.

You are welcome.

Like Jerremy, I've spent a lot of time helping people on and off this site. Arrogant is probably not a word they would use to describe me. I guess your dentist, family doctor, and home electrician are also just as arrogant because they know their area of expertise.

Crimson

When has there ever been a question posed that we have not tried to give a straightforward, biological answer. We even did in this thread.

Matt and I are probably the first two trying to help in many instances. We spend much of our personal time devoted to helping people with these type issues, much less our work lives...

CNC, I'll admit I do get sarcastic on here from time time, but I guess it's because I'm comfortable here. My sarcasm isn't taken well by some apparently. Even my responses in this thread have subtle hints of sarcasm.

You guys more often than not treat the other folks on here like they’re all dumb asses who are beneath you when they ask a question just like the one on genetics. What if the person asking that question was a new hunter or someone who just doesn’t get it yet….or just someone thinking outside of the box?…..and here the “pros” come along to make fun of them instead of using at as an opportunity.

I’ll tell you something else too which other have said on here several times before….you guys aren’t the only folks in the world with the mental capacity to understand the concepts of wildlife management. You should let the size of your head shrink down a little and try being a little more humble about the knowledge that you think you’ve cornered the market on. Just because you’re a professional mechanic doesn’t mean that you’re the only person in town who knows how to work on a car.

Nobody said that. But you did start by asking a question. That implies you didn't know the answer. Then you got several other replies from folks with hands-on-knowledge of the subject matter you asked about. You then proceeded to question those replying and post excerpts from research you had found, I am assuming today. That is all fine and well but you received first hand on-the-ground experience which most on here argue is much better than anything in any book. See throw-n-mow thread I guess I am just curious why it is almost always us against them mentality here. Nobody that is a professional manager/biologist thinks they are better than anyone else. We may do some things different but that is fine. We can all learn from one another. 2Dogs has helped me tremendously with understanding the differences in the deer herd within just a few miles and a couple other topics as well. I expect a lot of folks could learn a thing or two from him... Point is that is seems like most often that "we" are the ones that are willing to listen and change our stance on something and the other side is not cause that's not the way granddaddy Earl taught them.

CNC, if you'll notice I haven't contributed much to this thread because I thought others were doing a great job, and quite honestly they know much more about said topic than myself. I made the decision to join in when you started criticizing us. I learn every day.

The problem you ALL have is you need some cooler weather!! And daily relations with a woman wouldn't hurt.

This isn't pot meet kettle, I think it's pot needs to look in the mirror.

There's no daily relations with three kids. Weekly at best!!

Perhaps the best post in the whole thread!

Just trying to lighten the mood!! This is a great site and while disagreeing and discussing is no problem, I hate seeing people getting their panties in a wad. The sports forum is where that needs to stay. Only you can change that relations deal!!

this thread got girly - quick

im out

Playing to 2Dogs ego…..What a cheap move NH.

Well damn Yoda I'm , thought you'd accuse us of relations.

I’m guilty of it too Matt but you guys represent something that’s much more important than the next wise arse comment on here that gets attention. There’s no shortage of those on here. Look, I like the fact that you have the ability to say nearly any and everything you want on here but if you allow it to do so then a lot will be lost as a consequence. I can make my skin as thick you guys want to go with it but if we can’t ever have a back and forth on here where folks feel free to give their opinion without the fear of being ridiculed and publicly shamed by even the professional biologists….then we’re really bringing down the quality of what is otherwise a great forum full of great people. Every thread and question that is asked is another opportunity for you to influence the knowledge level of the general public. I learned the hard way in my mid twenties when I was placed in a supervisors position that the “Because I’m the boss and I told you so” is not the best method for manipulating human behavior….As such, neither will be “Because I’m the biologist and I said so”. You just have to place seeds of thought in as many heads as possible and then allow them grow on their own. JMO

It's all good though. Let's get back to talking about wildlife. Where were we at?......Ah yeah, trapping coyotes....

This started out as what looked like a great topic and written as a genuine question. The more I read, it appeared that only certain answers were acceptable, and the op was going to adamantly prove his answers are right, thus not truly a genuine question as indicated in the first thread.

I was going to post that you can't have "established" and "potentially" in the same sentence regarding the same subject but then read through the rest of the thread.. Even Troy is mostly staying out of this one .. I'm out

Here I’ll use it in a different context for you……It has been “established” that drinking and driving can “potentially” lead to bad consequences.

You were saying????…………

Yall still on here arguing about coyotes?? I have been out doing something important! My friend had a SBR come in he has been waiting on, nothing like shooting piegeons in a warehouse with a 300BLK suppressed! Well back too coyote trapping........

I believe your assessment is correct, Sir.

and he don't make more . last time i checked i'm top predator where i hunt and i intend to decide what dies there not some damn yote .

X100.

Not necessarily true. Hunters are only one of many forms or mortality that occur on your property. Do you understand what compensatory mortality means? Let’s say we add up all the ways in which an animal can die and then come up with a total mortality rate. Maybe its 50% of all the coyotes in the woods die each year. It may break down something like 10% that die from cars….10% that die from starvation…..10% that die from injury….10 % from hunters and so on. What compensatory means is that just because you take away a little bit of mortality out of one of the individual categories doesn’t mean that the total changes. It often times just shift itself to one of the other ways of dieing. Let’s say hunters only killed 5% next year. That doesn’t necessarily equate to a decrease in overall mortality. What often happens is that more just get hit by cars, die in fights, starve, etc... and the total remains generally the same.

This is how just shooting a stray yote doesn’t necessarily equal 1 less yote total. Its very likely that you are just taking away from the other forms of mortality. In other words, that one you shot is one less that gets hits by a car…..or like I was saying in my earlier post…..that one resident yote you shoot just opens up a hole for that transient one that was going to have died otherwise.

Here's a link that talks about this subject......

The Basics of Population Dynamics



"In effect, the specific causes of death tend to balance or compensate each other. Wildlife professionals call this phenomenon compensatory mortality. Stated another way, one type of mortality largely replaces another kind of mortality in animal populations, while the total mortality rate of the population remains constant. For example, bobwhite quail have great difficulty surviving severe weather conditions at the northern limits of their range. When winters are extremely cold, many animals die from exposure, and fewer animals will be taken by predators. During mild winters, many quail survive only to fall prey to a host of predators because of finite amounts of escape cover. The overall effect is that approximately the same number of quail are supported by the habitat from year to year. Habitat to a large extent, determines the number of animals that can survive in a population, or animals that produce a “surplus.” This surplus is removed by mortality."

The person with the most opinions often has the least expertise.

Do you guys know how to participate in a conversation with anything other than personal slams Confucius?? If you don’t agree with what I’m saying then start your post out with “I disagree……” and then state your opinion so maybe everyone can benefit from the knowledge that you seem to feel is better to keep to yourself. It doesn’t mean I or anyone has to agree with it though nor do I feel like everyone has to agree with me. It’s called constructive debate. Fortune cookie quotes meant to be slams against me aren’t really adding much to the conversation.

You guys just blow my mind with the attitudes you take. All I hear is we need to educate the public better…..we need to educate the public better…..more education…more education…..Yet when someone gets on here and tries to have a back and forth to provoke individual thought amongst the other members…..all you do is try to shoot it down and slander someone. Geeesh.

A good pack of coyote hounds will fix your problem in a hurry. And lots more fun than traps.

I disagree. AND your a Baldheaded Big Eared Yota!! I just mess with you CNC! IMgoing Monday to set some traps in south alabama SO of I dont comment on you post dont think its because Im not interested! I think you post some interesting stuff = links you put up. Now some off the studies are old and dated. I havent had time to read the last 1 but I will when my coffee gets ready. Some of your points ARE valid BUT a think in the end as an overall tool coyote trapping is a good and valuable tool for the land manager too use IF he chooses too. Carry on with the posting, Im going to fry up some Maple flavored deer sausage and get my coffee!

oh hell paradigm shift

I tought you were working 1st shift!

yep 1st shift

CNC , just wondering , what do you see as a "balance" or what do you believe the term "balance" means ?

there's no balance in nature . what i'm getting from your typeing is that population of deer/coyote will some how flat line and stay the same ,

yeah and if a frog had wings he would not bump his ass when he hops either . bout the same difference as what you're saying .


one thing i know for sure i kill a yote his gone .

I’m not sure what part of that doesn’t make sense to you Frankie. We can break it down step by step or go over any parts you don’t understand but this is not just a concept that I’m pulling out of my arse. These are basic fundamental principles that govern wildlife populations. These concepts have been researched for years and it’s what is taught to the forestry and wildlife students at Auburn or any other university. They are not just theories or opinions. So while you may not believe it or it may not make sense to you…..the reality is that this is the way things work in nature.

Did you take the time to read any of the last link I posted from Clemson University?

I took a little time to read it CNC so let me help you break it down. Those basic principles that are taught are just that, basic. Biologists, wildlife managers, etc. use those basics along with real boots on the ground field time to develope a real understanding of how the natural cycle works. A deep understanding of that cycle allows them to use human intervention to manipulate parts of those principles to achieve a desired result. For example, heavily trapping coyotes (additive mortality) to increase deer and turkey populations. Killing an individual animal, such as a coyote, at the top of the predator prey pyramid, will have a much greater impact than killing an individual animal further down the pyramid, such as a rabbit or quail. Let's take Frankie for example, he shoots a lone coyote in June. Unknown to him, he killed a 5 yr old, 40 lb alpha male that is extremely smart and aggressive. He has become very good at finding and killing fawns and is killing 30% of the fawns killed by coyotes in a 5000 acre area. Taking out this one coyote has had a significant impact on fawn recruitment in this particular area. Another thing you may want to consider CNC, is that coyotes are newcomers to our area, with their rapid expansion most likely caused by fox hunters, so the void you speak of being created by their removal will be filled by native species. What it really all boils down to is that you have to decide for yourself what level of human intervention you're comfortable with in your management plan. Some want as little as possible, some use food plots, burning and trapping, but only want all native trees ( no sawtooth oaks, etc. ), which is where I fall, and some go all out using every available chemical, non-native plantings, supplemental feeding and even high fences. Trapping is not a cure all for the coyote problem, but it is far and away the best solution currently available. I have seen large areas and small areas trapped, long term and short term and have seen the impact on prey species ranging from a small increase to huge increases, but never have I witnessed a negative impact on prey populations because of coyote removal.

All I know is I hate coyotes, kudzu, and privet and ya'll ain't changing my mind!!

oh i understand ecosystem and prey/predator relationship very well . with out or limited predation deer population will grow to the carrying capacity of their ecosystem .

CNC , as for as your links i may have read them many years ago and many others since .

We'll just have to agree to disagree........